Drum Shields

[BlueShift]

Drum screens are good, if used in the right context. I'd only used them when I had to, if I could get away with the louder ambient drum sound then I wouldnt use the screens.

 

heres why: as soon as you put a screen round your kit you'll find your mic technique will have to change drastically. Your gates will all of a sudden be stuck open, your snare will be in your kick mic, your kick in your snare mic and everything going everywhere! basically, what im saying is, be very aware that you will need to tweak your mic placement to maintain a quality sound when adding a drum screen. Close mic-ing becomes more essential and you may find you need extra mics you werent using before.

 

However, once you've sorted these isues - on smaller stages or with loud drummers your screens will give you a lower overall stage volume which might be just what you need for those vocal and instrument mics...

[kiwichristian]

Again I am blown away by all your comments, this is the best drum screen discussion I have ever had.

 

To basilbrush1982, if I was playing with a brass and wind section I would first look at what kit I would use (I know many drummers don’t have much of a choice) but if it was a smaller stage, most probably wooden floors and the focus was on the performance and not on interaction, I would play behind a screen.

 

I am a staunch anti-screen-ist and my views are based on both personal and professional ideals, but, I do realize that, yes, I am just the drummer. Im only one part of a larger band, hopefully trying to accomplish something bigger than both my opinions and the bands. So with that frame of mind, I can see how screens can be a very helpful and in some cases, a necessary tool. On the other hand, sound men also need to realize that they are only one piece also and to what point do you sacrifice 100% crystal clear sound for real feel and emotion?

 

However, I am strongly apposed to the misuse and overuse of screens especially in churches. There is a huge “Monkey-see Monkey Do” attitude out there and now its almost at the point of DRUM SET + CHURCH = DRUM SCREEN.

 

This is clearly wrong and this is where I take a stand.

 

5 piece rock style bands do not need one. 20 piece band with a wind section, maybe. A large choir, strings and wind backing a particular singer… ok

 

Also basilbrush1982 your comment about the "Congregation Screen" was very well said. I am looking forward to that problem and I hope it comes soon!

 

To Mr.Si “£2k's worth of very nice Pearl Masters” that’s all well and good, but does he tune it right? (im not saying he cant, im only saying that with the right heads and the right tuning you can make a Pearl Export sound very nice in any room too)

[Rob_Beech]

and with the right heads and the right tuning you can make any kit sound rubbish by not playing it right. there are lots of factors to take into consideration. Its the same with any instrument, brass, reed, wind, piano's, the voice. I've got a 3 and a half octave range in normal voice and I can hold a note, but I just sound rubbish.

 

Drum screens are a tool, they have their uses, they must do or they wouldn't be on the market, and when you need that tool you use it, when you don't need that tool it stays where it is. You don't put a compressor on a channel because you have one....do you? I know I don't. I'll use one if it needs it. There are of course people that WOULD use it just because they have it, there's a message from Mark for you a bit higher up.

 

You wouldn't use a hammer on everything just because you had one, its no good for undoing bolts, but when you have some nails to knock in.....

 

 

 

Rob

[bigglesuk]

Kiwi, you question basil's use of screens and say that you would look at your choice in kit to solve the problem. That may be a great solution, but many of us have to work in situations where we have to work with what we are given. Most drummers won't think like you and just turn up with whatever kit they have, they normally only have one.

 

As for your comment about church + drum screens = must be done. I disagree with what you are saying. Yes some churches will take that approach as there knowledge on acoustics and drums is limited, but they can help tremendously. I'm toying with the idea of using them at our church because: -

 

1) We meet in a sports hall (drapes around three sides) and the acoustics for drums cause lots of issues

2) The band have to be squeezed on a very small stage so the vocalists end up infront of the mics

3) In churches you quite often have vocalists and other musicians who aren't that confident so you have to push the gain, oh look there is mainly drums coming from that mic!

4) We have a house kit which all the drummers use, so should be tuned quite well. However the drummers bring their own snare/cymbals and one of them has the thickest crashes you can get from Zljian otherwise he cracks them! Play quieter you say? Have thinner cymbals? True, but he normally plays in a rock band that travels around the world so brings his normal cymbals he travels with. Screens would help with them getting into the vocal mics.....

 

If you want to tell me that I can get 85db off my stage without PA, with a modern style worship band, without using drums screens and a drummer being able to play normally please let me know how. As currently, we are really struggling to do that!

 

 

Adam

[Mr.Si]

To Mr.Si “£2k's worth of very nice Pearl Masters” that’s all well and good, but does he tune it right?

 

Yes. ;)

 

<Pedant> tuning it right is a very relative term </pedant>

 

Go to HERE and there are 3 tracks on which you can hear what was recorded of the band (all close mic'd) a couple of years ago with the same drums he uses now. Studio situation, not live, but there wasn't any takes so the whole thing was one taken from single full-length takes.

 

You will hear from this that the drums sound good.

 

Hope this helps you in your quest.

 

Si

<><

[pisquee]

True, but he normally plays in a rock band that travels around the world so brings his normal cymbals he travels with. Screens would help with them getting into the vocal mics.....

Adam

 

When playing in a church he should be more humble and be the pro muso he claims to be and play appropriately for the venue, audience, and situation.

[bigglesuk]

True, but he normally plays in a rock band that travels around the world so brings his normal cymbals he travels with. Screens would help with them getting into the vocal mics.....

Adam

 

When playing in a church he should be more humble and be the pro muso he claims to be and play appropriately for the venue, audience, and situation.

To be honest, he does. Just his cymbals are so thick they are louder than other cymbals and seem to have a longer sustain. He tried using a smaller diameter cymbal to see if that helped. Just as loud, and more ear piercing due to the higher frequency. There aren't any issues with the level of his snare/toms, it's just the cymbals!

[basilbrush1982]

Again I am blown away by all your comments, this is the best drum screen discussion I have ever had.

 

To basilbrush1982, if I was playing with a brass and wind section I would first look at what kit I would use (I know many drummers don’t have much of a choice) but if it was a smaller stage, most probably wooden floors and the focus was on the performance and not on interaction, I would play behind a screen.

 

All very well but the drummer was an extremely talented 17 year old who probably only has one kit as Biggles has said. Also to get the sound required for the big "happening" worship we needed a nice big kit sound so you can't just chuck in a small jazz kit as we won't get the sound we want!

 

On the other hand, sound men also need to realise that they are only one piece also and to what point do you sacrifice 100% crystal clear sound for real feel and emotion?

 

there was no such problem, the band played with brilliant emotion and every band member could hear what they wanted even with screns.

 

However, I am strongly apposed to the misuse and overuse of screens especially in churches. There is a huge “Monkey-see Monkey Do” attitude out there and now its almost at the point of DRUM SET + CHURCH = DRUM SCREEN.

This can be true but each individual case needs to be assesed to see whether it is what is best for they're situation

 

5 piece rock style bands do not need one. 20 piece band with a wind section, maybe. A large choir, strings and wind backing a particular singer… ok

As biggles said and as I have said above if the environment the band is playing requires them then use them. I know the situation Biggles finds himself in very well and drum screens will definately help his situation. The majority of the time you can't chose the bands equipment and the stage they're on but you can chose whether to do things to solve your problems. If drum screens do then use them. Don't be ashamed of using them if they solve your problem but don't just use them because everyone else does.

 

Also basilbrush1982 your comment about the "Congregation Screen" was very well said. I am looking forward to that problem and I hope it comes soon!

Why thank you!

 

Oh and Mark and Biggles it was the front of house engineers idea I believe, maybe you should have a word with him! :)

[Peter Chivers]

Just a thought, there is one particular band that I work with and I have got comments from the lead tenor (saxophone) player about the difficulty he has hearing himself over the drums. (band is miked with 1 vocal, 1 solos and 1 piano microphones). Line up is drums, double bass, piano, 3 trumpets, 2 trombones and 4 reed players. :)

Peter

[kiwichristian]

To basilbrush1982 – please don’t think my comments are about you or your decisions. All my comments are broad in nature and not directed at anyone (unless I have addressed them)

 

I know many drummers don’t have the right drum kits for the right rooms, but being in a church where the room never changes; it’s a lot easier to get it right than going out gigging at pubs, where you don’t see drum screens…

 

I am mostly pointing my finger at churches who have had the same kit (probably with the same heads on) for 5 or more years and are now saying, “hay these drums are a problem, lets get a drum screen” (if the truth be known, that quote should probably end with “because they have one down the road”)

 

OK so the kits been there for 5 years and now its drum screen time – NO

Have you looked at the kit, I mean asked someone who knows? Not a regular or a so-called professional-drummer but someone who really knows.

Heads, tuning, cymbals, angle, position, what’s behind it, what’s above it – real answers to what is recently a new problem.

 

- What is the difference between a professional drummer and a large cheese pizza?

A Large Pizza can feed a family of four…

 

To bigglesuk the problem sounds like the room and your choice of drummers.

I think your going to have a very hard time getting what you believe is a good sound (remembering that ‘good sound’ is relative to the listener) if this kit is stationary then address the kit first. So it’s a long sports hall, high ceiling, wooden floors, wooden stage, wood wood wood…

 

Try doubling the carped under the drums. A carpeted wall (black) behind the kit. Pinstripe heads with O’rings and don’t use a metal snare, get a wood snare with a CS dot or a P3 dot. And try tuning UP no down, this will make the drums sound clear and defined... Cymbals, get you own cymbals and if one drummer is a cymbal smasher, don’t let him play. (Quick tip, thin cymbals will take more pounding than thick because they have some give. Thick = loud not long life)

And it sounds to me like you won’t need to mic the kit, making things easier for you.

 

If you spend big money on a screen, you then need some good mics. At the end of the day, your still micing a kit then does not sound good in the first place.

 

To Mr.Si, sorry, I never ment your drums sounded bad. I was only generalizing.

I was illustration a point that a lot of very very nice kits are tuned like dogs.

[basilbrush1982]

To basilbrush1982 – please don’t think my comments are about you or your decisions. All my comments are broad in nature and not directed at anyone (unless I have addressed them)

 

I know many drummers don’t have the right drum kits for the right rooms, but being in a church where the room never changes; it’s a lot easier to get it right than going out gigging at pubs, where you don’t see drum screens…

 

I am mostly pointing my finger at churches who have had the same kit (probably with the same heads on) for 5 or more years and are now saying, “hay these drums are a problem, lets get a drum screen” (if the truth be known, that quote should probably end with “because they have one down the road”)

 

OK so the kits been there for 5 years and now its drum screen time – NO

Have you looked at the kit, I mean asked someone who knows? Not a regular or a so-called professional-drummer but someone who really knows.

Heads, tuning, cymbals, angle, position, what’s behind it, what’s above it – real answers to what is recently a new problem.

 

- What is the difference between a professional drummer and a large cheese pizza?

A Large Pizza can feed a family of four…

 

To bigglesuk the problem sounds like the room and your choice of drummers.

I think your going to have a very hard time getting what you believe is a good sound (remembering that ‘good sound’ is relative to the listener) if this kit is stationary then address the kit first. So it’s a long sports hall, high ceiling, wooden floors, wooden stage, wood wood wood…

 

Try doubling the carped under the drums. A carpeted wall (black) behind the kit. Pinstripe heads with O’rings and don’t use a metal snare, get a wood snare with a CS dot or a P3 dot. And try tuning UP no down, this will make the drums sound clear and defined... Cymbals, get you own cymbals and if one drummer is a cymbal smasher, don’t let him play. (Quick tip, thin cymbals will take more pounding than thick because they have some give. Thick = loud not long life)

And it sounds to me like you won’t need to mic the kit, making things easier for you.

 

If you spend big money on a screen, you then need some good mics. At the end of the day, your still micing a kit then does not sound good in the first place.

 

To Mr.Si, sorry, I never ment your drums sounded bad. I was only generalizing.

I was illustration a point that a lot of very very nice kits are tuned like dogs.

 

Kiwi, I have spent many a time at Biggles' church (in fact I used to go there) and the kit sounds awesome even if it has been tuned by "regular or so-called professional drummers!" (who are probably the best people to do it!) There are more people in that church that know about drum kits and how to tune them than some churches have attending them, and you can't just turn round to an amazing drummer who is renowned in christian circles as being one of the best drummers out there and say sorry you can't play! Also where would you like the church to pull the money from? To buy a set of comparative cymbals to this guy uses would cost a couple of thousand pounds, that's not going to be easy to persuade people to spend that money when they can get cymbals for free by people bringing their own.

 

Oh and he's already said the problems not the kit its the cymbals so tuning it the way you've said and putting stuff behind the kit wouldn't help the problem, besides which there's already a big acoustic drape there anyway. And how would you propose solving the problem of the vocalists in front of the drums bearing in mind the stage is a small setup?

[paulears]

I can name dozens of shows I've been involved with where I'd have loved something to quieten down the drums and stop them leaking into every open mike. I'm firmly of the opinion that certain genres of music indicate certain volumes, and trying to get the drummer to play quieter makes it sound 'wrong'. So a screen can let them play loud but the sound remain manageable. I do know drummers who understand the problem and have different kits - Arbiter Flats work great in a pit where the drums frequently are too overpowering. The difference a properly tuned kit makes is very obvious, but I'm not certain it's a volume thing - a poorly tuned kick or tom that drones on forever is always mix prominent, but it isn't just level - it's the horrible noise it makes.

 

The trouble with modern church music is that their needs are very different to the typical live venue. They demand a low noise floor for the speech elements, but want rock level music. Nothing wrong with this at all - after all, the PA is there to service (pun intended) their needs.

 

Frequently, the venues are full - usually there are drapes and carpets, all adding their contribution to the 'sound' of the venue. The performance area is often large - some having the entire width of the venue open - no traditional wings, as in a theatre, and no pros opening. As a result, all sound on 'stage' is in full view and has direct paths to the audience's ears. Distance between performers usually demands high monitor levels, and direct vs monitor sound also has small time delays meaning the monitors have to be even louder. Once the drummer kicks off, everyone has to play at a complimentary level to the drums, or not be heard. If it is a quiet instrument, like a flute, then monitors get even more important. The ability to quieten down the drums is pretty useful in these situations.

 

One last comment - perspex/plexiglass screens are very easy to crack or scratch. Some designs I've had through our venue have hinged panels, but these are often cracked around the bolt holes after hard use. Many are suffering from scuffs and scrapes. The best ones seem to be where the panels are separate, and packaged in proper housings, and the slotted into a hinged frame. They don't look as good as plain plexi, as the frame is quite substantial, but they last. In a church setting, I'd imagine a semi-permanent glass screen to be a very useful device to have around.

[Alec]

Had a fantastic example of differences between drummers last week down at the local rock club on an all-comers jam night.

 

Played bass for three numbers with one drummer, all cooking along nicely, no problems. Changed drummers for another 2 numbers, and I was in pain and investigating other stage positions midway through the first number. Same kit, all the same PA config, just the drummer changing made a *HUGE* difference.

[kiwichristian]

OK I have a new question for you all.

 

Forget sound quality and player quality for a second - Is it right to put a musician, any musician, behind a barrier?

 

Furthermore, hypothetically speaking, for any reason, you would ever put a singer behind a screen?

[paulears]

Well drummers already sit behind a huge screen of drums, so a bit of perspex isn't much of a problem. I have no problem with any musician including a singer being behind a screen - happens in the studio all the time, live performance wise, then the visual element is important - sometimes more important than the sound. If the performance has to be seen properly, then screens are out, aren't they?