Drum Shields

[kiwichristian]

First of all let me apologies for my poor use of caps. I realise that online they indicate yelling, sorry, I forgot. I was not trying to yell, I was trying to highlight my comment.

 

Also I am not angry, I have said it over and over this is the best screen debate I have ever had, I do hope it continues and continues well.

 

The point made about the metal drummer having to play quite I feel was a rather unnecessary comment as a metal drummer should and would never play quite and likewise never need or want a screen, as it goes against what he (being ‘metal’) is trying to do.

 

And Mr.Si, you did ask the question, “Yes the drummer may also have to learn to play quietly, but that's not always going to work is it?” and that question has an answer.

 

Yes, drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

I will repeat it again; drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

Whether the drummer is happy playing at that level or can play at that level is another question.

 

Read back over the comments, drums are too loud; we need to make the drums quite and so on. The reason everyone is using screens is to control volume, if the drummer has his/her volume under control (i.e. has control of there instrument) then there is no need for a screen.

 

Again, Mr.Si, to your remark about me being or having a “closed mind”. If you care to read back, I have already said that I can understand in cretin circumstances that I would, myself, play behind a screen.

 

A truly unprecedented remark on my behalf.

 

Please if you care to look, you will find I am anything but closed minded and I am still waiting for someone, anyone to offer good reasons for drum screens. I am sorry if my earlier comment about drum tuning upset you, but I have already explained – Page 3 - 6 Aug 2007, 5:39 PM

 

If you would go back to the top of page 2, my first comment, there are still unanswered questions but my most pressing question is, still…

 

1) Forget sound quality and player quality for a second - Is it right to put a musician, any musician, behind a barrier?

 

2) Furthermore, hypothetically speaking, for any reason, you would ever put a singer behind a screen?

 

Those are my 2 questions, please Mr.Si or anyone else, feel free to answer them.

[bigglesuk]

And Mr.Si, you did ask the question, “Yes the drummer may also have to learn to play quietly, but that's not always going to work is it?” and that question has an answer.

 

Yes, drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

I will repeat it again; drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

Whether the drummer is happy playing at that level or can play at that level is another question.

I disagree with what you are saying here. I have been in situations when the drums have been too loud, had the drummer been playing at a quieter level the dynamics wouldn't have been the same. They wouldn't have carried the same energy and passion that was there at the time. Behind screens they could have been playing with the same energy, passion and dynamics without being too loud.

1) Forget sound quality and player quality for a second - Is it right to put a musician, any musician, behind a barrier?

Ok, you are viewing the screen as a "barrier". A piece of equipment is only a barrier if you make it one. Is it right to place a musician behind an acoustic screen in order to control the dispersion of their sound? Yes, but only if it is needed.

2) Furthermore, hypothetically speaking, for any reason, you would ever put a singer behind a screen?

I'm sorry, but this is a pointless question! Drum levels and other instruments disperse over a wide area. Vocals do a similar thing but not to the same levels. It's going to be unlikely that a vocalist will generate enough level to cause the same issues as a drum kit!

 

I see a solution list for drums that are too loud as follows: -

 

1) Get the drummer to play quieter (not always possible)

2) Tune the drums quieter (not always possible)

3) Treat the venue acoustics (not always possible)

4) Experiment with drum screens to see if they help with the issues being faced by the venue/engineer.

 

Adam

[i_hate_fisicks]

Yes, drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

I will repeat it again; drums at the appropriate level will not need a screen.

Whether the drummer is happy playing at that level or can play at that level is another question.

 

Yes, this is not true. Drums are loud. Full stop. In some situations, drums, at whatever level they are played at still bleed too much into surrounding mics (be they for choirs, string sections, whatever), or they are too loud for the audience (usually in worship situations). In such situations, a screen is an appropriate tool to control the sound. What's the problem?

[Rob_Beech]

I feel I need to make my point clear again.

 

Whilst in some cases the engineer will work closely with a band and be able to converse with them all the time,there are many more occasions where an engineer turns up at a job not knowing much about the band, he/she has to use his ability to mix and the tools available to get the best sound he or she can from the system. if the drummer is crap then that is an issue, its something that's been mentioned in this thread, yes they should learn to play quietly but what good does that fact do you when you've turned up at the gig? None whatsoever!

 

it's all a case of, "well they should be able to play quietly, and they should control things" sorry, but they can't, you have a gig to do, its the screen option or its the not being able to hear the vocals option.

 

A heavy metal drummer playing quietly is about as useful as a guy digging up the road with a rubber pneumatic drill.

 

 

Also, completely OT, its amazing how peoples sense of humour can be so different, I was thinking exactly the same thing, however I would have used "dead carp" instead.

[6th Order]

My 2pw:

 

I am a drummer. In a church. I'm also responsible for sound at the church. Oh, and I chose to add a screen to our setup.

 

We have a small 'box' stage with a low ceiling and 3/4 vocals in front of the kit.

 

I have played in all sorts of venues from pubs and clubs to modern churches and two cathedrals. I've played with various amounts of monitoring and to variously aged audiences. All without a screen and using technique to control volume as necessary. So, I feel qualified to say that I can control my volume when needed, but this involves altering/limiting the way I play.

 

When I play behind my screen, I actually view it as a part of my kit that helps me to achieve the sound I'm after; the same as my choice of sticks, heads, tuning etc. I have the freedom to use the full dynamics of the kit I have spent so much time working on! (Which I have to say that I don't use the extemes all of the time.)

 

I do like the advantage of cleaner vocals, and that was a part of my decision to go for one as well, and I also like giving more control over the effect of the drums to the FOH engineer.

 

It's a win win situation for me.

 

Interestingly, I also have the choice of a 1960's Premier kit of bebop proportions and a Roland TD8, and I'd still go for the acoustic kit with the screen.

[TallMike]

I don't think that drum screens are akin to a barrier as much as a cable is 'keeping a guitarist on a leash'... if you see what I mean.

 

I'm afraid an awful lot of drummers can be too loud *but* a lot of stages are too small, meaning that the drummer's cymbals are right next to the singer's ears.. and that in turn often means.... 'more in my monitors please' ....... 'blimey... why are my ears ringing?'

 

It's just the nature of drums that they're not a quiet instrument. If you want to get a certain sound out of a sax, sometimes you got to play it at a certain level.

 

Screens are not an amazingly intrusive barrier... they often just mean that when drummer man comes off stage, people comment on a great sound as monitor man or FOH guy hasn't had to work up a bead on just to control his lovely power toms!

 

:) for screens!

 

Pink Floyd put the whole band in screens for the Wall tour.... and if it's ok by them.. :)

[paulears]

To be honest, I doubt we will resolve this one as we seem pretty polarised in our view on drums, but Tallmike has made a very valid point.

 

Some instruments have different timbre at differing playing levels - the sax he mentions is a very good one, but equally somebody using 'real' guitar sustain cannot do it quietly in the same way as anyone playing in a brass section can't. In fact, from a musicianship point of view - what is the point of a composer putting 'ppp' or 'fff' on the score if the sound man insists that the range must go from 'ppp' to 'f'?

 

I'm obviously not totally serious here - but we seem to be saying that the solution is for the musicians to play quieter, and to a degree many could - but some simply can't - and if they really can't for musicianship reasons then we have to take some steps to make it work, and screens would seem to be that.

 

Despite drummer jokes, some are really good musicians. I had a conversation with the late Ronnie Verrell about how he could be so loud without appearing to hit the drums hard. His answer was "technique!" - closely followed by "where is the bar?"

 

My last comment is that our job is to deal with what we get presented with - we are a service to the performers, and with a few exceptions, (as in dealing with truly bad and unimportant to the show musicians), the musicians are what people come to see and hear. It is not our right to insist they play quieter, or differently - possibly compromising their performance. If we are to do our job properly we need techniques that work - and if I had a set of drum screens, this would certainly be one I'd employ BEFORE I asked the drummer to play quieter - which would be my very last solution.

[dbuckley]

I've yet to get the chance to use perspex drum screens, so I've kept quiet(!), but here's my take on drum kits - with one exception every drum kit I've ever beenf aced with has sounded awful. There is nothing appealing about an unmic'd drumkit. However, lose the original sound, give it a set of mics, add some EQ (and if you're that way inclined, gating, and/or FX), and you've got something you can use in a mix.

 

I know that kits sound different depending on how hard they are hit, much the same as just about every real instrument alters in it's tonality depending on how hard it is hit / twanged / strummed / blown / whatever. Therefore, asking any instrumentalist to play quietly (or conversely, more loudly) is changing tonality for sound purposes, which as a sort of muso and sort of soundie I think is wrong. Understandable, but better to avoid the problem than to use an unsatisfactory solution. I also hate how the kit is often the benchmark for level, and so as a soundie one often ends up 'fighting' the kit.

 

In a rock gig in a room of moderate size of bigger, using a PA of adequate poke, at rock levels the original acoustic of the 'kit has been completely replaced by it's mic'd persona. So the fact that the kit sounds naturally ropey is irrelevant.

 

In the theatrical context it's altogether harder. A kit in a pit makes a Big Noise, and if you are doing something with a bit of attitude along with a bit of drummer inexperience coupled with enthusiasm, then you've got a problem. I'd like to try screens, but I've had success with both relocating drummers out of the acoustic space, and by sticking them surrounded by stuff to try and keep them a bit quieter.

 

I faced this exact issue just a couple of weeks ago; Forbidden Planet by the local school. The original plot was to have the band on a rostrum out front. A certain amount of persuasion later, the band were at the back, with the guitarists using 10W combos, and the drummer hidden in a corner of the stage. Lets face it - when teenagers get a chance to play 'born to be wild' they don't go easy. Hiding the drummer at the back worked; at mid-90s SPL (on the el cheapo meter) all guitar and kit was from the PA, so a decent balance with a good sounding set of instruments was obtained. I fully accept that in a school type environment one may have rather more infulence than in many real world scenarios.

 

I'm absolutely certain the screens have an important role to play in the call for good sound, and accept that they have their own problems and consequences. I'm also sure that there are situations where they are totally inappropriate. But, its just another set of variables in the equation.

[basilbrush1982]

I've yet to get the chance to use perspex drum screens, so I've kept quiet(!), but here's my take on drum kits - with one exception every drum kit I've ever beenf aced with has sounded awful. There is nothing appealing about an unmic'd drumkit. However, lose the original sound, give it a set of mics, add some EQ (and if you're that way inclined, gating, and/or FX), and you've got something you can use in a mix.

 

Here's a tip, find someone who can tune drum kits and you'll soon notice that it's all about tuning. I personally can't tune kits very well but I have a couple of friends who can make a very cheap average kit sound brilliant. I really do not believe that there is only one kit that could sound good it just needs to be tuned with decent skins on (ie not wrecked and unchanged for years). We really shouldn't have to be hiding drummers to achieve our aims. If it's a choice of hiding the drummer or putting them behind a screen I'll put them behind a screen!

[minty]

I fully accept that in a school type environment one may have rather more infulence than in many real world scenarios.

 

I'm not sure thats usually the case, the vast majority of professional musicians I have worked with have done all they can to help me improve the sound, and will usually discuss any problems they are having with monitors etc with me before playing louder, or changing their set up.

I have recently worked with a drummer who went to great lengths to make sure that his kit sounded good through the front of house, and after a discussions between the md, myself and said drummer he even went to the lengths of bringing a different snare to the next leg of the tour to try to get closer to the sound we were all trying to achieve.

 

I have already stated that I have used drum screens in the past and was very happy with the reuslts - under those circumstances, that job had a drummer as far usr as possible behind screens, my most recent job a had d drummer in the pit in his own words 'hitting 'em with passion' and the sound worked, there are so many contributory factors I don't think it is possible to say 'drum screens are right' or otherwise. I just consider them a potential tool of the trade.

 

Martin

[Mr.Si]

I don't think it is possible to say 'drum screens are right' or otherwise. I just consider them a potential tool of the trade.

 

Totally agree. I think that's what alot of people have been saying. Sometimes they're appropriate, sometimes they're not. I've only used mine with 1 band so far, as I know that's how I've managed tto get best results.

 

What Mike was saying about so many stages being too small was spot on. If stages were deeper for the band who I engineer for, I would more happily not use the screen. cymbals bleeding into vocal mics is my only issue here and distance attenuation will have more effectiveness at these higher frequencies.

 

Simon

[TallMike]

There is nothing appealing about an unmic'd drumkit. However, lose the original sound, give it a set of mics, add some EQ (and if you're that way inclined, gating, and/or FX), and you've got something you can use in a mix.

 

In a rock gig in a room of moderate size of bigger, using a PA of adequate poke, at rock levels the original acoustic of the 'kit has been completely replaced by it's mic'd persona. So the fact that the kit sounds naturally ropey is irrelevant.

 

COBBLERS! (in my opinion)

 

Have you never heard the expression Rubbish IN, Rubbish OUT'?!?

 

A decent quality kit, with Properly tuned toms, decent quality cymbals and a player who knows how to play evenly and dynamically will sound great acoustically. And you really won't have much work to do. Especially with your EQ and racks of compression!

 

Some of the best kit sounds have been got with a properly set up kit, kick mic, snare mic and two decent quality overheads (414s mainly)!

 

Smother everything in hard gating, compression and FX and they may as well be playing V-Drums.

 

Mike

[dbuckley]

Smother everything in hard gating, compression and FX and they may as well be playing V-Drums.

 

Ah.... manna from heaven :D

 

I rarely gate (in fact I don't possess any gates, so it must be fairly rarely, like when I'm using other peoples gear) and can't ever recall compressing drums, though I know lots of folks like to do so. I almost universally gently compress bass guitar, so I leave the drums to their natural dynamic, which I like to think adds some interest to the rhythm section.

 

Obviously (and not unusually) I'm the odd one out here, I just don't like what drum kits sound like naturally. And don't get me started on bin-lids :D

[Kilroy]

I'm the drummer for my youth group, pastor of the youth group, sound guy for the youth group...(get the picture).

 

I use a drum shield for a couple of reasons. First, the guy at the music store told me too when I was buying all of the PA stuff and drum mics (stupid reason), but after getting it I ran some test with and without it. With the the screen up, the drums really came through the PA well, the overheads on the kit didn't pick up the keyboard player/singers monitor mix that is sitting 3' in front of them, and the acoustic drums didn't bleed though over the PA volume.

 

We play at a relatively loud volume for church (youth service, rock style worship music) - loud enough to over power the drums if by themselfs, but not loud enough that the MMX kit (4-ply thin shell) didn't creep though the mix out front. So I use the shield to keep the kit from coming though acoustically into the house and mixing with the mics on the drums (out of phase) and it helps to keep everything seperate from the drum overheads in the mix.

 

The drums are still loud enough on stage not to put any in the monitor mix either. Without the shield, everything just got muddy.

 

BTW, you can check out pics of my youth group in action during a recent event at www.bootcamprevival.com I'm the preacher and the guy that was normally playing the drums in the pics.