rigging kit

[Simon Lewis]

So can we assume that such an item would not (in the usual course of events) be considered suitable under PUWER?!

[Nick Evans]

I would guess that it actually is suitable because it is sold as such by the manufacturer.

 

A long long time ago Grigris were introduced to the roof at a well known West London exhibition venue. These were to be used as self belaying devices and were a complete nightmare to use. I used one for longer than most, a whole 3 days. They proved to be very difficult to use and were the cause of frequent near falls it suddenly decided to change the degree of resistance it offered, putting the climber off balance, which as anyone who has walked the T irons knows can be quite inconvenient.

 

The one thing that grigris are good for is work placement, an infinitely variable length strop is very useful. Regular inspection is vital, as a peice of safety critical kit it is far too complicated for its own good.

[Baldrick]

I'd just like to point out that the Grigri is not technically designed (or sold as such by the manufacturer) for work positioning (EN 358) or for use in Horizontal Lifelines (EN 795 C ?), but as an abseiling device (EN 341).

 

A Grillon is the correct device to use for work positioning, and while appearing almost almost the same, is certified as a complete unit with a rope that has stiched loops acting as end stops, and is protected against accidental opening with a Phillips screw.

 

Just my 2 cents worth, Google the EN's for more info....

 

Stay safe,

 

B.

[AndrewR]

And just a minor point more about grigri's. If your's slips and lets you slide down to the ground, its either so worn you need to replace it, or you have the wrong rope. I have spent a surprising amount of time suspended on a rock wall, tightening hand-holds, being held up by a grigri and never had it slip. Ditto for belaying people (who being mostly newbys kept falling off the wall). But then as mentioned above they are abseiling equipment, not work placement or fall arrest.

 

Again I wouldn't use one for rigging as they are far too dependant on the user. I want to be able to do the job without trying to keep the grigri and rope properly positioned all the time.

 

Although, the phillips screw to hold a grillion closed seems interesting, as for a grigri to come open you have to unhook the caribiner that attaches to your harness....

 

I think a point raised earlier indicates the problem with grigri's is that people are using them with little or no training, and hense expecting them to do things they are not designed for. I would not attempt rope access until I have some training, I would also not allow someone to belay (regardless of the equipment) until I know they are competent. (after all the point of having a person belaying you is that in the event of you falling they can hold you, a grigri is just there to help them, not do the job for them! If it fails the belayer should be in a position to simply grip the rope with both hands which should always be on the rope anyway. Or at least thats the way I was trained.

[flypig]

Rich,

It says quite clearly in the post "DO NOT USE THIS BIT OF GEAR UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT PROPERLY". I deliberately didn't go into too much detail about knots from the point of view it's not up to me (or others) to teach, but to offer experienced advice with the proviso that you check things out for yourself.

 

GriGri's will usually fail for one of three reasons, 1) It's old and worn out. 2) Wrong rope diameter. 3) Opertator error. I'm very intrigued to know how the GriGri failed on a supposedly well maintained climbing wall. can you provide any further detail?

 

And yes, a Grillion is a very good alternative (basically same horse, different leg if you get my meaning).

[Seano]

Essential reading for Grigri users:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf

[Rich newby]

I'm afraid I don't no much of the details, I just herd it off a mate who is an instructor there, when we got out in the lakes together. I'm sure if you give them a ring they will give you details, my mate almost got kicked out of there shop for asking if they sold them!

 

Rich

 

A point like this might have had somthing 2 do with it:

 

Recently, at a climbing wall near you:

On nearing the top of a route around the limit of his ability, a climber throws a long dyno for the finishing jug. He gets agonisingly close to sticking it but he’s tired (it’s the end of his session), and slowly peels backwards expecting only a short fall as there’s a bolt by his waist. After cratering onto the concrete floor 10m below, the climber and his belayer try to figure out what went wrong.

 

Rope: 10.5mm diameter, nearly new, good condition

Belayer: 10 years experience and uses a grigri regularly

Protection: bolt at the waist of the climber, almost no slack in the rope

Fall: very gradual and slow

 

The last two points are the important ones – there was no slack in the rope and the fall was very gradual, resulting in almost no shock loading to the system. Now, the grigri works by arresting a fall when its pivoting cam locks after a sudden load. If this sudden loading is absent, rope may run through the device without locking the cam to such an extent that an incident such as the above becomes possible – especially if the belayer is holding or pinching the device in any way. The fact that the rope in use was nearly new and probably quite “slick” may have also contributed.

[Chris Higgs]

We can't mix sport climbing and work equipment up by law unless it is appropriate to the task as Simon mentioned.

It often isn't, the main difference is the climber uses a long bouncy rope, the person at work typically won't. He'll be using a webbing lanyard and come to a fairly sudden thud at the end of a 2-4m fall. If he's lucky, he'll be on a vertical system that arrests the fall within .5m or and just shake for a bit, hopefully whilst someone competent inspects anything that has sustained the force of the fall, including the rigging points.

Even if a rope based system is used, it is often a low stretch rope unsuitable for dynamic loads and falls distances are small when used correctly.

DJ and Nick and Nix are right (from a speed read).

GriGri's are not generally for fall arrest unless you are using them as designed as a dynamic belay with a dynamic rope. These techniques are used in some situations by specialist companies, but generally not preferred because of the skill and concentration required in use. Not something in much evidence when painting pylons in the Highlands.

They do make good incidental abseil devices when there are special reasons for using such a device on a single line, such as emergency cherry picker exits.

 

Full harnesses are the law in the UK and EU in general for fall arrest because the PPE Directive and Work at Height Directive require use of EN standards. It has to do with amongst other things suspension after a fall, security and comfort.

 

If you're using work positioning techniques, there is a risk of falling in the event of a primary failure (anchor/kit/brain) so most 'professional' harnesses need to be equipped with both WP and fall arrest attachments.

If you're at work, falling from a work positioning task isn't a 'safe system' so your employer needs to provide fall arrest as well.

At the risk of being accused of punting, you need training to understand this gear. Like a safety bond, you only need it to work when you need it, so to speak, and it'd better be right.

The duty of providing the kit and the training is the employer's or self employed person's, not yours.

Take kit you own home if you're an employee, it may not be appropriate or safe.

Ask the boss to assess the work to see if it is the only way of doing the job.

If it is the only way, ensure he has taken advice and provides the right kit and the training in its use and inspection.

You're a long time dead.

Sorry for the long post - you can see there's a lot to comprehend here.

[Michael Beere]

Hay

 

I was wondering if anyone could help me with a problem. I am having problems finding a correct harness for this industry. I'm not total sure on what type I should be buying or using.

 

Please could anyone help?

 

cheers

[Pete McCrea]

How about reading the thread right through? I'm not going to tell you which harness several people have recommended, as they are listed in this topic- so read from the start.

 

Also use the search function.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion, that if you're not too sure which one you need, that you NEED to get training. If your involved in rigging on a level where a harness is required, then your likely to be in contact with the people that know. Using a harness incorrectly is just as dangerous as not using one. Please do not just go and get a harness because you think you need one. Find out what you need to do the job safely. And it's not just a harness and a rope, it's the achor points and the rescue systems.....

 

Edit: I've just read your profile, and you say you work for Stage LX- it might be worth speaking to the rigging guys and getting them to train you, or explain the systems to you.