blackbeast250 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Hi folks , I am investing in a new sound system very soon , more than likley the speakers will be kv2 audios ex system with 2powered tops and 2 powered bins, what I would like some help with is this , would it be possible to do away with a large rack wit mixer , compressor, equaliser and effects, and use a high spec laptop and software to run the system , with some sort of interface for plugging in instruments and mics? the system wil be used mainly for a solo musician with just vocals and guitar and guitar synth.The price range I have available to me for this (just the laptop and software ) is 10,000 euro so I guess thats about 6,500 -7,000 pounds. hope this dosent sound too ridiculous , and that someone can help . thanks in advance.Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenWall Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Robin, With a budget like that I would be thinking more along the lines of a digital mixer, something like a Yamaha DM1000 . Standard 16 inputs IIRC, 12 standard outputs, with room for expansion. (£5000 ish, plus a few extra cards in the back such as ADAT etc...). All of the outboard you mentioned is avaliable within a few layers. Less easy to move around from venue to venue, which is probably the only downside compared to a laptop. Was there any particular reason you wanted to run a 'virtual desk' from a laptop? I personally do not know of any software that would do what you want it to, others may prove me wrong though! HTH as a starter! Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Whilst possible, it is not ideal. Effects need TONNES of processing power We are talking top of the range laptop here, running the bare essentials only. Then you need a DECENT control surface. Then you need inputs. Then you need software. And that is for a basic system A computer is a multi-purpose device by design. It is not designed to process large amounts of sound data. A multipurpose system will never work as well as a system designed to do a specific job, unless the person who designed the specialist system was an idiot. It would be a lot cheaper to buy a digital console, and it will be a damn sight better than a PC. This sort of issue has been argued in Lighting for yonks. The general consensus that has been reached though is that what you need to take into consideration when pricing the system is that the computer you use has to be dedicated to the job. You cannot say "We can use the laptop for other things too" because in a production system, you cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 BenWall got there before me. A computer just isn't suited to do what you want running in real time. For your budget, a digital mixer is easily within reach and contains all the effects and routing options that you want. I have a DM1000 and am very pleased with it. On occasion I've even controlled it from a laptop via a wireless network (though only during setup, not during an actual show!). I'd say that's the way to go! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbeast250 Posted January 30, 2006 Author Share Posted January 30, 2006 BenWall got there before me. A computer just isn't suited to do what you want running in real time. For your budget, a digital mixer is easily within reach and contains all the effects and routing options that you want. I have a DM1000 and am very pleased with it. On occasion I've even controlled it from a laptop via a wireless network (though only during setup, not during an actual show!). I'd say that's the way to go! Bob thanks folks , will take all this info away and chew on it for a while , does the digital mixer have all the compression and effects and equalisation onboard, cheers,Robin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Yep. Digital consoles are like an all in one 'thing', they have cue memory, effects, compression among a host of other features depending on the desk. Some people swear by digital, some don't. I like analogue with outboard for most shows, but on a low budget, a digital console will give you a lot more versatility for less money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 thanks folks , will take all this info away and chew on it for a while , does the digital mixer have all the compression and effects and equalisation onboard, cheers,Robin. The exact feature set varies from board to board, but in general the answer is "yes". On the DM1000, there is a gate, compressor and delay on every input and output. Similarly, each channel input has a 4 band fully parametric EQ (Centre Freq, Q and Gain on all four bands). Besides this, there are 4 channels of very useable Yamaha effects, one supporting full surround sound capabilities and the other three stereo. Without expansion, there are 16 mic/line inputs plus 4 "omni" inputs which can be thought of as line inputs. There are also a variety of digital inputs which may be of use for CDs, some instruments, etc. Any input can be routed to any channel, as well as to direct outs etc. There are 8 auxes (switchable pre/post on a per channel basis) and 8 busses, all in a 19 inch rackmountable case. As somebody else mentioned, there are recallable scene presets. If you wish, all the above can be controlled/recalled from a computer via the "Studio Manager" software that comes with the mixer. That's the DM1000...if you don't need all these features, the 01V96 can do most of the above. I personally love working with digital consoles now (mainly the Yamaha range where I've used the DM1000, DM2000, PM5D "in anger" and played with the M7CL). Unlike Mac, I now prefer digital to analogue, but everyone is different. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Have a look at the Mackie TT24. www.mackie.com/products/tt24/index.html I'm growing to love it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 There was a thread in the Theatre Sound mailing list a couple of weeks back saying that Mackie are having serious reliability issues with the TT24...this coming from a Mackie dealer no less. He was unable to get stock because the factory had stopped shipping due to the problem. I have no personal knowledge one way or the other, but it might be worth checking this out before spending any money. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Woodford Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Whilst I agree with the comments made for laptops as mixing tools, they do work in some situations I have a laptop which I use live (solo vocal and keyboards using apples logic software). As a sound generator (ie my piano samples & effects for same) it works well however should you wish to run your guitar and/or vocal through it the following needs to be bourne in mind. By sending signals into the laptop and then backout again, you will inevitably introduce delay via your laptops latency which will make things sound a bit phased (to your ears, not the audience) and at worst will be unplayable/singable. The amount of latency depends on how fast your laptop is. There is a sonic price to be paid in the AD conversion and subsequent DA conversion by leaving the analogue path and this is directly influenced by the quality of your digital converters. This also applies to any digital mixing option although the stability, intuitive set up (plug and play) flexibility and 'all in one' effects from a digital mixer may be worth any potential compromise. (to be fair it depends on the weakest link in your signal chaing but I'm guessing by your budget we're looking at some good quality pa) Laptops are not good for mixing on the fly unless you have a midi desk type controller - (in which case - why not get a desk). as it involves a lot of mousing around - not sexy. If you just need to set things up and leave them, probably not an issue. Laptops crash (as I've found to my cost) you need to find a stable setup - can't speak for digital mixers Do not underestimate the faffery,pain and learning curve of digital audio on a laptop. Effects do eat processor but how many are you going to use? If you are only looking at guitar and vocal, unless you go waaaay over the score on the fastest latency settings, on a fast laptop this maynot be an issue On the plus side laptops are small, portable for one person and configurable to a number of applications (location recording, sound source generation etc). Personally I always ensure that the vocal remains in the analogue domain (outboard compressor - nice valve pre) and only send a signal to the laptop to generate some reverb. This is more for sonic quality than anything else as initially my conversion process wasn't that great - I could live with the wee bit delay). The latency in playing the sound sources is too small to be an issue as it's only 1 way (ie from the laptop to the outside world rather than into the laptoip, processed then out again as it would be with vocal) For my given application it's a mixture of anlogue and digital and I'm perfectly happy. Just thought I'd point out that laptops do have their place. having said all that and at the risk of a kicking from the desk advocates - take a look at the ULN-2 from metric halo with the DSP option. It's a best in class option for mobile laptop audio applications with it's own software and has everything you need for your app. As it has some really fancy routing abilities and has onboard DSP, you may be able to get around the latency issues. Any one with any experience of these? If not - chat to the tech support guys at metric halo before you rule out laptops completely. If it's just for a solo performer where you're set up and go, this may well be an option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Tordoff Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Robin, I agree with everyone's comments about actually using a laptop for the audio processing, and I can't argue with anyone recommending a Yamaha DM1000, (that's what I'd do) but if you really want to cut down on the "stuff" you might consider something like a Yamaha DME 24. This is basically a digital mixer with ins/outs, dynamics, effects, mixing etc all in an fairly blank rack mount box. It's as powerful as a full digital mixer with proper SPX quality effects with the added bonus that it would also work as a speaker processor/output EQ for the KV2 but a lot cheaper because there are no knobs or faders; you have to operate it via a laptop connected to it. This could be wireless for a modest cost. Tree (I work for Yamaha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParryMatthews Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Sorry for posting this again but I really need an answer to this question. The other thread I was told to read, I've already read and it didn't answer my questions so I posted up my question with my specific issues. If someone closes this thread and just tells me to read old posts, I'll have to go elsewhere for my information. The poster of that other thread is talking about spending £6-8k!!!!!! He's operating in a different universe to me. I am going to be playing live using my laptop and want to route the vocal through the laptop for live effects.I am using an Edirol FA101 and have Ableton Live 5, Sonar 3 Producer Edition and Sound Forge 7 software. I am using a stereo wav backing track that is 7 songs joined together running at about 30 mins. This will play as one long piece and come out in stereo from Edirol outputs 1 and 2 into the PA desk. I want to plug the vocal into the Edirol, use the software effects, probably Waves, then out of channels 3 and 4 on the Edirol into the mixing desk. I need different effects for each song so I would need some kind of automation so it can be timed correctly but I don't know which software I should use. If I need to get different software then I will. The laptop is pretty high spec and should be ok. I've done a lot of home recording on the computer but have never ventured out and played live with it so I'm a bit of a novice in a lot areas. The gig is on the 1st of March so if anyone can spare the time to help, I'd greatly appreciate it. [EDIT]Similar topics merged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minty Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Aside from talking about grounding problems with laptops, I can't offer you much help wiith your choice of software (Logic person myself) and I shy away from using computers live anyway as I generally like something nice and reliable like a minidisk (and then a backup one hnady) but for DAW software you might find something useful if you visit www.sounonsound.com and check out thier forum. Hope that ramble helps.... Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghance Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 hi. I have seen this done with a couple of solo acts.. both bloke & guitar kind of thing. both acts were using a mac with appleton live and a midi contoller (a guitar stomp box / kensington freak). sorry I can't help with exactly how the automation worked as I was out front and the mac was on stage.. but it looked like ableton was set up with a ssingle sequence lasting the whole set. the controllers where being used to step thru from song to song using position markers, and switch on / off / modify effects. let us know how you get on. best.. .spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParryMatthews Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Thanks Martin. I have the original songs recorded in Sonar where the vocal plays with the effects I want. I can mute the vocal and sing live through Sonar and it works but Sonar is is too unstable for playing live. Is there a way to copy the effects out of Sonar into another program, route the vocal through that while the backing track plays and get the effects on the vocal to automatically change at given times? both acts were using a mac with appleton liveThe only trouble with Ableton is that the long stereo wav backing track (that I made in Sonar) is several songs joined together but some of them start glitching if the tempo is too far away from what Ableton is set. ie one song was recorded at 80 bpm, a couple at 90 and a couple at 120 bpm. I took the individual mixes, pasted them into one long sonar track then joined them together with some bits of atmospheric noise to fill any gaps. This one long wav was put together with Sonar set on 100 bpm.If I play the wav in Ableton, the songs that are 80 and 120 bpm lose a load of quality and 'glitch' while playing. :( Excessive quote snipped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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