school lighting quotes

[jony.reynolds]

Don't buy moving lights for schools - spend the money on a more reliable and cheaper to maintain conventional system.

Would it be wrong for a very well equipped school with good engineers to get moving lights. My school are considering buying two martin mac 500 to add to our rig. As I said my school is already very well equipped with conventional lighting. Would this be a bad move to make?

Jon

[paulears]

Not if you will get the use out of them and have funds to spare - but for the money, you'd get twice as many 250W units and they'd look even better - schools normally have short throws - higher power discharge lamps may be wasted - and of course when the buying budget runs out, will the bsme budget be able to pay for new lamps?

 

That said - if you are even thinking of doing the BTEC automated lighting unit, then you need movers - well equiped school, good engineers. Most school technicians would love to have some - but for many, the specialist knowledge and kit to keep them running after the guarantee runs out is just a dream. My old college have 6 buckets that sit in the flight cases because nobody wants to get them out, carry them, rig them, patch them and run them - no hours in the day to do it - so if you have a few grand sitting there, maybe other things should come first?

[gareth]

Would it be wrong for a very well equipped school with good engineers to get moving lights. My school are considering buying two martin mac 500 to add to our rig. As I said my school is already very well equipped with conventional lighting. Would this be a bad move to make?

Jon

The folly of schools buying moving lights has been given sooooo much coverage on this forum in the past that it's made it into the Lighting FAQ. Click the link, scroll down to the bottom of the main FAQ, and you'll find a long list of links to various topics - many of them cover the issue of moving lights in schools. Click and read ...

[Bobbsy]

Would it be wrong for a very well equipped school with good engineers to get moving lights. My school are considering buying two martin mac 500 to add to our rig. As I said my school is already very well equipped with conventional lighting. Would this be a bad move to make?

Jon

 

One point to make (which has been alluded to by others, but I may as well spell it out):

 

Only buy movers if you will also have an on-going budget for maintenance and spare parts, lamps etc. The initial purchase cost is only part of what you'll spend over the next few years.

 

A second point: whey you say "good engineers" do you mean students or actual employees? Schools who have good student technicians (I don't like using "engineer" as a generic word...it should mean a person with a specific engineering qualification) this year often find that the position changes as soon as a few people graduate.

 

Bob

[jony.reynolds]

you'd get twice as many 250W units and they'd look even better - schools normally have short throws - higher power discharge lamps may be wasted

 

I can see the sense in that but there is a problem of needing such a high power discharge as we have a very big hall and 250W units just wouldn't be good enough (as far as I have been told) But also my school are curious to know weather our bars would actually hold two 500W units. Is this something that would require further investigation by a specialist?

 

whey you say "good engineers" do you mean students or actual employees? Schools who have good student technicians (I don't like using "engineer" as a generic word...it should mean a person with a specific engineering qualification) this year often find that the position changes as soon as a few people graduate.

 

Bob

By good engineers I mean students. Currently we don't have a specific person who is the main engineer. All we have is a Director of Music who can just about work his way around the lighting controller and is a very good rigger but we have about 3-4 students who can probably use the controller to a lot higher standard but of course not to a professionally trained engineer. As far as changing as students move on a graduate we have just lost our best 'engineer' but have now moved on to a new 'engineer' who has been trained buy the former best 'engineer' so in time he should come to the same standard but if we buy moving heads then I'm sure the whole team would need training from as we have not embarked on moving heads before.

thanks

 

jon.

 

 

Mods: sorry for going off track. Jon

[paulears]

Jon - to be honest you've just given all the reasons why you should NOT get movers - nobody knows how to fix them, operate them properly, rig them safely etc ect.

 

A 250W disharge is quiet bright enough for the kind of throws you have - unless it has to compete with simply tons of 1K Par64's. You will find 250 W fixtures bright enough, and there is a pretty good trade of in weight. 250W fixtures still are not light, but going up to the next size isn't required.

 

 

You have the Head of Music as your technical staff member, and you seem to have student training student. Not good!

 

What you really need is somebody who has used all sorts of equipment, who knows what they are doing and can give proper, accurate advice. Plenty of people on the BR may well be able to come and have a look before you order equipment that may be totally and utterly useless.

 

Pairing of light sources is pretty well the most important aspect - as people have said. Symetry being the main reason. What you need to do is assess what you would like, then consider the practical elements. Check that you can afford the running costs. Servicing is expensive and somebody needs to do it. I've been tinkering with movers for years, but cheerfully admit that anything more than basic electro-mechanical faults are beyond me. Even buying a service manual is too damn expensive for a one-off repair. Lamp cost is quite expensive - and will normally come from the department 'running' budget. Have youi ever heard your teachers moaning about not enough books, paper, photocopys etc - think what they'll say when you want major money for a new lamp because somebody bumped a bucket!

 

If your bars have been up a while, then you will need to check they can take the weight - impossible to guess without an inspection.

 

One point - Bobbsy mentioned 'engineers'. I think you could call your people student technicians (please - not technicians), or crew, or technical team whatever - but the term engineer is not one that is currently in favour. Mainly because people go to uni for three or four years to become an engineer, and although we do have sound engineers from time to time, I haven't come accross anybody in lighting calling themselves that for years.

 

One year you won't get any students interested and all these lovely pieces of kit will simply become mothballed! and once a year has passed - who will do the training - the Music Teacher - hmmmmm.

[Tomo]

Then you almost certainly DON'T want moving lights, unless the Director of Music wants to take on the responsibility of looking after them, and has a budget to maintain them with.

 

The trouble with schools is twofold:

There is fast turnover of students. Unless there is at least one member of staff who has the knowledge and responsibility to look after the fixtures, they'll be dead within a couple of years - shortly after the youngest person now on the team leaves - because it is impossible to pass on everything, especially to a teenager who 'knows everything'.

(I know what I was like at that age!)

 

Secondly, there is a very limited budget. Movers eat budget - lamps need replacing every few hundred hours of use, cleaning, replacement of damaged/broken parts...

Unless there is that budget in place, they'll be dead within a year of install when the lamps go.

[Bobbsy]

One point - Bobbsy mentioned 'engineers'. I think you could call your people student technicians (please - not technicians), or crew, or technical team whatever - but the term engineer is not one that is currently in favour. Mainly because people go to uni for three or four years to become an engineer, and although we do have sound engineers from time to time, I haven't come accross anybody in lighting calling themselves that for years.

 

Indeed. In this context, at the very least I'd take "engineer" as meaning somebody who can dismantle, repair and maintain the mover, not just somebody who can use it. In fact, I'd prefer to reserve the term engineer for somebody who is educated to degree or diploma standard and who could design the lantern originally, but I'm old fashioned in that regard!

 

Bearing in mind what you said, please add me to the nay-sayers in this thread.

 

Bob

[jony.reynolds]

One point - Bobbsy mentioned 'engineers'. I think you could call your people student technicians (please - not technicians), or crew, or technical team whatever - but the term engineer is not one that is currently in favour. Mainly because people go to uni for three or four years to become an engineer, and although we do have sound engineers from time to time, I haven't come across anybody in lighting calling themselves that for years.

Thanks for the advice, now knowing that calling fellow students engineers is a mistake I can now correct my self. In my last post you will see that using (engineer) was a cover up until I knew what to put. Thanks. As far as it goes with the Head of Music, I think that he could generally take charge and look after them, as he has done with all our other lights/dimmers. In terms of budget, my school is an independent school and has disposable money, weather they would be willing to spend it on lights, is another question. But what we have seen is that our new budgets which are higher are being granted as they can see we are getting results (unlike the sports department) but it all still remains to be seen weather my school decide to go through with it. Employing someone to be in charge full time of the equipment and someone having the full knowledge of how to use it would be great, but I can see that they are going to get bored. As far as our current equipment I know we are fully capable of using it with the help of the Head of Music. To be honest this isn't really my area of knowledge. I am a sound engineer (correct place to use engineer? {I am trained}) but I am just doing some investigation. I will show this thread to my Head of Music and see what he says. It all really depends on weather he can be bothered and also if we can get the money for the lights and as well for maintenance.

Would it also lower the maintenance costs if the lights are never moved?

thanks for the advice, Jon

[djw1981]

Would it also lower the maintenance costs if the lights are never moved?

 

I suppose, but its a bit like buying a car for the radio, and nevr moving it - a real waste of hundreds of pounds when the same effect could eb acheived witha par can and scroller.

[Pete]

Would it also lower the maintenance costs if the lights are never moved?

 

I suppose, but its a bit like buying a car for the radio, and nevr moving it - a real waste of hundreds of pounds when the same effect could be achieved with par can and scroll.

 

I'm hoping the OP is suggesting that they never move their position IN THE RIG as opposed to never utilising the Pan and Tilt! I think your also over simplyfying the features of the heads the OP asked about.

 

IMHO never moving the heads in the rig would probably increase the maintenance cost.Purely because when you moved them you might at least wipe them clean. This might keep the casing clean and if you were relatively thorough get some dust away from the fans!

[WiLL]

Movers in schools isn't a question you can just say 'no' or 'yes' to. I've worked in three different schools now, and only one (the present one) would I consider buying moving heads as opposed to hiring them in for the large productions. The reason beinf I've spent the last two years improving the generic stock to the point where I can now say;

"Right, what do I want next?" as opposed to;

"Right, what do I need next?"

I've only got 48 dimmable channels, but have now got in stock about 70 generic lanterns, mostly 1k fixtures. They're a mixmatch of models and makes but hey, that's what schools are like, we buy a pair of lanterns at a time so the bursar doesn't notice :). But I've now reached the stage when I look around my theatre (a 200 seater, small/medium sized venue) and say, okay, what would make my life easier next term when I have all the dozens and dozens of drama exam pieces running consecutively? Answer; Using my 48 generic channels to provide washes in loads of colours and all the various 'angles and gimmicks' that students love, i.e. loads of birdies and floorcans etc. With at least a pair, but better to have four, of moving head profiles to provide the HUNDREDS of specials that are requested, normally ON THE DAY! Drama students who have been asked to devise their own exam pieces often at production meetings stare at you blankly when you ask if they have any lx requirements like specials and say they don't know yet; and then on the day of the tech they'll turn around and say, can I have a red spot here? (In an area of the stage that no sane lx designer would normally put a special) Having a couple of movers gives you the flexibility NOT to have stage full of sulky year 13 girls pouting at you. Which is a bonus beleive me.

Also, in the 250w vs 575w debate I'd say 250w is more than strong enough for most school venues HOWEVER most 250w profiles don't have an iris:( Which makes them a pain in the arse as far as I'm concerned, having to use the small circle gobo when you want a tighter spot results in a fair loss of output. I'd go for the higher grade of mover just to have that element of control.

Before I'm inundated with responses like 'you don't need movers you just need better production meetings' from people that have never been in my situation I'd just like to say shush, calm down and go and work with a priovate girl's school for two years, then come back and rant at me.

(FYI we have a full time technical crew of two including myself whose SOLE responsibilities are to the drama dept and theatre, we have a capital budget of £3000 a year and a consumable one of £4000. I'm not stupid, I realise that movers have costs but I have to balance that against how much that is balanced out by their usefullness. and THAT is a question that only the technician in charge of the venue can say yea or nay to.)

 

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth, see you at ABTT folks ;)

[mac.calder]

WiLL - Your situation is slightly different from my experiance.

 

Many/most schools (at least in Australia and I would assume the same is true of the UK) do not have a "theatre", but rather a "Multi purpose arts center" (or something along those lines), with no dedicated technicians - unless they are a large school (often the private schools). The drama teacher, or a student, is often the most knowledgable person there. Most of the "NO NO NO NO NO!!!! YOU DON'T NEED MOVERS IN A SCHOOL" people are talking about those sorts of situations. Where you have a dedicated technician, the situation changes quite a bit. Whilst yes, you are a school, you do not run the risk of the only student who knows how to use them graduating or the teacher moving to warmer climates. You have the staff to maintain the lanterns and you can ensure they are being well treated. Very different to most schools.

[Barney]

Just to drag this back to the OP:

 

I would say, from past experience, that it's not always uncommon for a quote to list ONE of each item, especially moving lights. It is then up to the purchaser to determine what they can afford / put their case forward to accounts.

 

In fairness, I have seen requests for quotations come in with a specific requirement for this type of format/layout.

 

In all honesty, I too disagree with bumping up prices for 'miscellaneous' items, but sometimes this is requested too, to ensure that a suitable amount of cash is released from those working in accounts (ie: "you've asked for £4000, here's £3000).

 

Plus (at the risk of being shot down in flames), if someone in the drama department doesn't know what they're talking about, they really shouldn't be in the position of ordering things in the first place. For comparison, you wouldn't go and ask a company for a quote on speedboat without at least some basic research into specifications and performance and relate that against what you want it to do.

 

Anyway, regarding overinflated prices, surely that is one of the reasons for getting three independent quotes for equipment?

 

Just my 2p :)

[mac.calder]

The way I read this in the OP is that a third party (hereafter called a consultant) was involved... It certainly sounds like the dirty sort of trick a consultant would play.