Increased spl from barn doors?

[MarkPAman]

so it looks like we've found at least two pub venues that work well with simple delayed speakers!

 

Bob

 

I can up that to three or four, as there is one in Portsmouth that I've put delays in, & another near by that I will do if I go back.

[paulears]

I think what is happening here is that we are talking about different issues. Spaces that are actually lots of little spaces joined together need a different approach. The thing that I have a real problem with is that while accepting that the secondary space needs delaying to match the residual sound coming direct from the main room so they become coherent, what happens when you walk back towards the main source? The delayed system starts to sound behind as time alignment slips away, making the delay quite noticeable. My point is that time alignment with fixed listeners works brilliantly - but only at the place the alignment was done for. Once you move away, it is wrong. I guess my arguement with the entire concept is down to designing a system that gives superb sound in a limited number of places - me, I'd rather have good sound everywhere. While normally having no time for the hi-fi buffs, I notice that they accept this as standard practice, you set the system for a single listening position. So they have 5:1, 7:1 and more systems for their DVDs with complex time alignment to get it as spot on as they can. what you can't do, is move around the room.

 

So in these multi room pubs, somebody has to decide where they want the aligned sound - assuming sound also arrives there from one or more other spaces, how would you possible align it.

 

I don't think I am going to change my opinion there is a lot of snake oil about. Perfectly good theory, great concept, careful setup and testing. I'd maintain m view that upping the quality of the cabinets has more effect on perceived quality than time alignment.

 

I can't quite get my head around the theory of this when un-aligned sound can't be prevented from messing up the calculations. What we have is multi-path. Scribble a rough room layout with speaker positions - then explain how you can make it aligned everywhere? If you can't then you don't have good quality in the venue, you have it in certain places within the venue, others as a result sounding pretty poor. I can't see how you can have both.

[MarkPAman]

This is the set up I am thinking of. Not drawn very to scale!

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h59/markpaman/PubPlan.jpg

 

Total size must be about 7m x 25m.

 

If clear sound is wanted in the back bit then I put in a single speaker as shown.

[Bobbsy]

So in these multi room pubs, somebody has to decide where they want the aligned sound - assuming sound also arrives there from one or more other spaces, how would you possible align it.

 

 

Well, an even more scribbly version of the room I was talking about would be:

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Bobbsy/PubDelay.jpg

 

You're entirely right that it's impossible to get the time alignment perfect everywhere but, in practice, this wasn't so much of an issue. Obviously, there were no chairs or tables directly in the "arch" to the second area, and standing there is discouraged because it blocks the way to the bar. Most tables on either side of the divide were somewhat shielded by the arch walls.

 

Because of the use of the second set of speakers, levels could be kept to a reasonable SPL in both areas...the amount of sound bouncing off the extreme back wall and into the "stage" room was fairly minimal. In practice, the effect was more a fairly instant change in time alignment as you passed though the arch, but this wasn't overly noticeable since nobody stood there, they just passed through.

 

As I stressed in my first post, pub sound is not my thing, but my very limited experience suggests that sometimes you have to go for the "least worst" solution rather than pretend that anything is "best". Multiple room, low ceilings, tables almost touching the speaker positions, etc. etc. all conspire to make pubs NOT a nice place to do sound!

 

Bob

[The Boogie Man]

:huh: If I could just steal my topic back for a moment :** laughs out loud **:

 

Is the design of full range cheepish cabs , the best idea for a pub enviroment ( low ceilings ) If you carn't adjust the dispersion, do you need to look at cabs with a narrower vertical dispersion?

cheers

baz

[Bobbsy]

I think everyone, including me, has been avoiding this one because there's no simple answer.

 

The trouble is, even with speaker cabs engineered to be nicely directional, our old friend the inverse square law still applies...so to get lots of sound at the back they have to be very loud at the source. In a proper array, you'd have highly directional speakers at the top, aimed to cover the back of the hall, plus others lower in the array aimed to cover people at the front. Obviously, besides the coverage you would also adjust the output levels to give a relatively even SPL around the venue.

 

That's the ideal world, but in a pub with low ceilings it's almost impossible to get speakers high enough to aim at the back of the room without blasting the people down front. Obviously this will vary greatly from venue to venue...some old victorian pubs actually have pretty high ceilings; others give you no headroom at all.

 

And, of course, all this is before you consider budget. Speakers with tightly controlled dispersion patterns also tend to be very expensive.

 

So, basically, after all this waffle all I can tell you is that there's no easy solution and every pub is different!

 

Bob

[The Boogie Man]

Cheers Bob,

 

I know it's a fancieful Idea, but what we really need is an inverted line array. In the shape of the letter r instead of j. :)

Hmmm I feel a plan coming on ;)

 

baz

[johnhuson]

On the discussion of coverage in all area's of a pub type venue, I feel that it's not entirely necessary to cover every corner of the pub with sound from the band. What you have to bear in mind is that not everyone going to the pub wants to hear the band and having quieter areas where people can still talk is often quite desirable.

 

To be honest most pub bands PA systems sound so appalling that direction/coverage is the least of their problems, learning how to eq and mix would be a good start! However I appreciate that present company have already got this bit right though and are striving for perfection!