Band in Orchestra Pit

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Thanks, they look great.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

[The Boogie Man]

If your worried about "faffing" around with V amps and the like. Most modern amps have a di or line out that is pre- volume control, so you take a line signal thats emulated to your desk and they can let you set their amp levels to the required "room" volume. Without affecting the line level signal.

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Cheers for that Bookie Man, I will get the MD to check with the musos what their amps are so I can see if they have line outs or not, as most of the ones we have don't. Perhaps it's just the larger ones that do.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

[Big Dave]

One of the "A" list turns I do work with has a great way of keeping the guitar stage volume down. The Guitarists have their amps on stage, which have a mic hung over the front of them, then a 2" piece of acoustic treatment is hung infront of that. All of the band (including the guitars) then work on IEM's.

[Albatross]

the band will be in front of the stage to one side, not really a pit, just on the floor.

 

Is the reason for this that there is NO pit? or is it to make the band visible?

If there is not a pit available then I understand the reason. BUT having the band between the audience & the singers will make for a really difficult sound balance, especially in the closest audience to the stage. If you MUST have it this way, where will your Main Speakers be? Behind the band (between band & stage) or in front of the band ( between band & Audience). If the Mains are in a fixed position behind the band already then you will have problems re-inforcing the band, and likely to induce feedback, even from the drum mics.

 

I said ok we will just run them all through their own active D.I. box, and mic the drum kit with a drum mic set meaning the guitarists/ keys players wouldn't need amps in the pit and I get full control of band levels, WHOOPEEEEE!!!!!

 

I would then give them 4 foldback wedges and run the intrumental mix back through these,

 

FOUR Wedges !!! ? that is ludicrous, and you may as well just let them use their own amps. You will spend all your time trying to please the musos and give them the sound through wedges that they expect to get from their amps, as well as more than likely ending up with a higher volume AND boosting the vocals. You will also create time alignment/phasing issues between your Mains & Wedges. If you think you will be able to 'control' the bands volume this way then you are sadly mistaken.

 

The only one who CAN control the bands volume will be the Musical Director/ Conductor. He/She is the one who must decide what is at correct volume, and unless you get them onside, you will face a constant battle for singers volume versus band volume.

[p.k.roberts]

If the band do use their own amps. and the amps are not physically too large, try using amp stands like these;

 

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/pa...NZQ?SKU=ST00896

 

I have had a fair bit of success with some fairly 'enthusiastic' guitarists when other methods of keeping the back line under control have failed.

[MarkPAman]

Can anyone recommend any headphone amplifiers? Seen some cheapies but don't know if they have the functions I would require i.e. 2 ch for direct feed and mix feed.

 

This 4 way headphone amp from Behringer gives you a lot of flexibility.

Each of the four amps has an Aux input. This means you can have a split from your DI / Pod going into the Aux and mix that in (with whatever you are feeding from your desk) as the musician wants.

You can set each amp to be left, right or both (while headphones can be mono or stereo), so by having two different mixes on the left and right inputs, and their own instrument in the Aux, four different mixes can be achieved (sort of).

Oh and each amp has 3 outputs, so that's 12 sets of headphones (but only 4 mixes).

 

I'm not exactly the worlds biggest Behringer fan, but this piece of kit is clever.

[Lamplighter]

[]

 

This 4 way headphone amp from Behringer gives you a lot of flexibility.

 

Reading the "Important Information Sheet" strongly smacks of the reaction "we didn't fit the appropriate filtering or bother to test it, so it is a really good radio receiver"

 

Brian

[MarkPAman]

I think that's a fairly standard warning from Behringer on quite a bit of their kit. Possibly to cover themselves.

FWIW, I have had one in a rack directly below an IEM transmitter with no problems.

[jamesperrett]

If your worried about "faffing" around with V amps and the like. Most modern amps have a di or line out that is pre- volume control, so you take a line signal thats emulated to your desk and they can let you set their amp levels to the required "room" volume. Without affecting the line level signal.

 

This still misses the point - the sound of an electric guitar is down to the amp and speaker as much as the guitar itself. You can't get that sound without using a speaker, no matter what Line 6 or Behringer would have you believe. You can get a close approximation with the Line 6 stuff but from recent personal experience I would suggest that you avoid the Behringer equivalents - they have real problems.

 

Cheers

 

James.

[The Boogie Man]

I didn't "miss" the point, It's just one of the ways to sort the age old problem of backline v's foh ( or rest of cast/audience in this case ) If your guitarist wants to sound like gary moore, ( don't we all ) :) the only way this can happen is with natural overdrive. Which means volume. Yes di from an amp isn't great, but it's better than di from the guitar. It has to be a compromise, the op is looking at ways to solve a problem. He can't please everyone. The band are one part of this situation.

[bigglesuk]

I didn't "miss" the point, It's just one of the ways to sort the age old problem of backline v's foh ( or rest of cast/audience in this case ) If your guitarist wants to sound like gary moore, ( don't we all ) :( the only way this can happen is with natural overdrive. Which means volume. Yes di from an amp isn't great, but it's better than di from the guitar. It has to be a compromise, the op is looking at ways to solve a problem. He can't please everyone. The band are one part of this situation.

 

The overdrive comes from the pre-amp section of the amplifier, not the output stage of the amp. I know many people who use power breakers between their amp output stage and the speaker to allow them to get the warm driven sound they want whilst not having to run their amp too loud.

[paulears]

The overdrive comes from the pre-amp section of the amplifier, not the output stage of the amp. I know many people who use power breakers between their amp output stage and the speaker to allow them to get the warm driven sound they want whilst not having to run their amp too loud.

 

Sorry? - A power breaker between the amp and the speaker? Who sell these? I'm guessing a resistive dummy load with a tap? - I just haven't heard them called power breakers?

 

While I'll admit that the current use of pods and the like does make simulating the sound of the speakers easier, many people who have a marshall, or mesa boogie might prefer the sound of real loudspeakers. For my guitar playing, I'm happy with a pod - however, I do know many guitarists who would not consider losing their cabinets. The comment about Gary Moore seems to me to be quite accurate. I'm happy to agree that many players state they can't play without the complete set-up, but haven't tried - and possibly could - but others just couldn't.

[The Boogie Man]

Marshall make a power brake. thd make one called a hot plate. Both the guitarists in DC/AC a tribute band I sang for used them ( thd ) in their set up. It was mainly when rehersing. on- stage they both prefered to use the full sound of amp and cab.

Biggles, the overdrive may come from the pre amp, but if that gave the warm overdriven sound alone then all that would be requied would be a jmp1 and hey presto Mr Moore. It doesn't work ( I've tried ) The combiation of the amp being overdriven and the speaker struggling to keep up running is what produces that sound. The power brakes also sound different when the speaker is attenuated.

I think were drifting off topic chaps.

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the overwhelming response, I will try and give you a bit more information now:

 

The speakers are located about 2m infront of the proc arch, with the band between the stage and these speakers. I could move them but it would be a pain in the neck (literally, they are about 3m up) and they are out of the way up there.

 

I am very good friends with the MD, however, she can be rather, shall we say "decisive" at times, so if she doesn't want something, then odds are it wont happen, plus she is codirecting it.

 

Unfortunately, against everyones advice on here, I have decided agains using headphones for monitoring for the simple reason of complexity. I have this horrid feeling this show is going to be badly organised and run, therefore simplicity is key, but I do want to do my best on the sound for it, having headphones everywhere, with headphone amps, different mixes through each one and 6 musos is a recipie for disaster, and I feel a few wedges at lowish volumes will be much easier to use.

 

I have confirmed that the Bass and 2 Keyboards will be D.I'd directly, and that they will get foldback via wedges. The M.D. is also going to ask the lead guitarists what they would like to do, D.I. or mic up. To be honest if they say D.I. then I don't care if they loose a bit of the sound quality, as the amount of problems it would solve far outweights this in my book. They could then have foldback through the wedges as well. I have run a few bands direct through D.I.'s and to be honest they do the job well, and give me complete control over the mix, which is important as I need to get the vocals over it without feeding back.

 

I suggested putting the band in an adjacent room and then they could use their own amps, I would them give them a video feed to the stage, however the M.D. needs to bring actors in on songs as well, so this is a no no.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel