Band in Orchestra Pit

[dbuckley]

Another thing you can do with guitar amps that are just too damned loud is put them "somewhere else". Dressing room, broom closet, someone's office, anywhere sound isolated from stage and auditorium. Mic 'em up, and bring them back on monitors (or better still, cans) to the guitarist.

 

One thing that won't work acceptably is using "ordinary" stomp boxes with a DI; it'll just sound buzzy and messy. If you are going to DI, you need the right sort of pedal, which means a modelling pedal with speaker simulation, such as POD, Boss COSM etc.

 

Wish I could reliably do the same with drummers. I've had the silent pit experience, and once you've tried it, you don't want to go back to a traditional noisy pit.

 

Putting the band in another room is also a very workable approach, if you can scrounge enough kit to make it work. Video links both ways is the big deal, so MD can see stage and cast can see MD. Mac has described previously how the do it on Broadway, which is an extreme extension of this idea; when they run out of room for musos they put unplaced muso in any old broom cupboard, with little LCD telly to see the MD, with the muso on cans.

 

There are some very real advantages to a silent pit or missing band; You mentioned recording the show, and with an isolated band the recording process gets almost easy; you have a balanced band, which you almost never get in a small venue with a non-silent pit. Having total control over band level eliminates the problem of "getting the vocalists over the band"

[dan slv-tech]

just my 2p worth,

 

Pits, were around in the black and white days when electronic instruments were not around, come to think of it electricity was rare ** laughs out loud **, so the need for the band to be "below" the stage top and "performer" to project their voice across the theatre!

Having an electronic band, in a small confinded space ie pit is a pig, as has been said musicians, esp guitarists want to be the loudest, so it becomes a battle of the "who can be he loudest"

ive had words with musicians who turn up to do a small concert with a 100w marshall and insist that it has to be loud, it takes a while for them to understand that a 100w marshall valve amp will make the hairs stand on ur face!

Yes there are several options, headphones, no amp, wedges, there isnt really a answer its down to the individual, some artists love IEM others hate it!

If you have pre-production rehersal time, try a little discapline in the pit, "oi your two loud" sometimes works, as is if u arrange the band in a certain way so they can all balance of one another sometimes helps, as does maybe giving them a "pit mix" so they can balance of that.

Amplifiers dictate the sound we here, so many musicans will not like not having one behind them, same for bass, V drums are great, but unless your a great user, they dont sound all that, and they dont do "soft" play very well, though maybe this is an inherrant user prob?

 

Think its a case of suck it and see, and see what works for you and the band,

 

I recently did a stint of shows in a theatre, in a pit, was dincredibly hi-tech, the pit had visuals of the stage on monitors, they all had backline, that was facing them!!! and they had a mini- monitor in their face, that way they could hear the "mix" and their backline it was amazing just how little "noise" was coming from the pit even th drummer (real drums) was controlled.

 

Its about self control, psome people have it, some dont. just because you have it, doesnt mean you have to use it (all the time)

 

Try all the things people have said on here and you will find something to help-

 

all the best

 

 

Dan

[DavidLee]

Wish I could reliably do the same with drummers. I've had the silent pit experience, and once you've tried it, you don't want to go back to a traditional noisy pit.

Friend of mine uses Arbiter Flats, which are just single skins. Still have a decent sound but much quieter than a traditional kit so you have much greater control over the result.

 

David

[Ben Langfeld]

Another thing you can do with guitar amps that are just too damned loud is put them "somewhere else". Dressing room, broom closet, someone's office, anywhere sound isolated from stage and auditorium. Mic 'em up, and bring them back on monitors (or better still, cans) to the guitarist.

 

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I just wanted to ask about this. I've heard of this being done a lot, but never done it myself. When using this kind of arrangement, how do you get around the fact that the signal coming from the guitar is unbalanced and so rather susceptible to electrical noise if it's going off the stage, round a corner, down the stairs and into a dressing room? Balancing and unbalancing transformers on stage and by the amp respectively? Or is there some other trick I've not heard of?

[Brian]

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but I just wanted to ask about this. I've heard of this being done a lot, but never done it myself. When using this kind of arrangement, how do you get around the fact that the signal coming from the guitar is unbalanced...

When I used to do real studio recordings I would DI the guitar and take it into the desk. Send a feed out to the guitar cab in the cupboard/kitchen/live room/toilet (yes really) and then mic that up. You then have two different sounds to play with from the guitar in the final mix.

[jamesperrett]

Wish I could reliably do the same with drummers. I've had the silent pit experience, and once you've tried it, you don't want to go back to a traditional noisy pit.

 

This is possibly veering even more off topic, but as a member of the audience I would much rather see and hear real instruments. Synthesised drums and cymbals somehow denegrates the experience of going to see live theatre.

 

Good theatre musicians should work in a totally different way to typical rock musicians. They have to be far more disciplined and, if they aren't prepared to turn down, they shouldn't really be doing the job.

 

Cheers

 

James.

[Shez]

Another thing you can do with guitar amps that are just too damned loud is put them "somewhere else". Dressing room, broom closet, someone's office, anywhere sound isolated from stage and auditorium. Mic 'em up, and bring them back on monitors (or better still, cans) to the guitarist.

 

I've heard of this being done a lot, but never done it myself. When using this kind of arrangement, how do you get around the fact that the signal coming from the guitar is unbalanced and so rather susceptible to electrical noise if it's going off the stage, round a corner, down the stairs and into a dressing room?

 

If the amp and cab are separate entities, you can just run speaker cable. Keep the amp with the guitarist (where he'd no doubt prefer it) and tuck the cab somewhere out the way. You shouldn't experience any interference pickup on the speaker cable. Although it will need to be of a sensible gauge.

 

I must confess I'd be rather worried if a guitarist turned up for a pit job with a 100w marshall amp & separate 4 x 12 though...

[Just Some Bloke]

Unfortunately, against everyones advice on here, I have decided agains using headphones for monitoring for the simple reason of complexity. I have this horrid feeling this show is going to be badly organised and run, therefore simplicity is key, but I do want to do my best on the sound for it, having headphones everywhere, with headphone amps, different mixes through each one and 6 musos is a recipe for disaster, and I feel a few wedges at lowish volumes will be much easier to use.

Daniel

Daniel, I just wanted to point out what a refreshing attitude you are showing here.

 

It would be easy for someone to go off to their teachers with a shopping list of kit that needs to be hired just so you can have loads of toys to play with. Instead you've decided to keep it simple so you can get good results with something you know.

 

An excellent attitude, if I might say!

[Bobbsy]

Putting the band in another room is also a very workable approach, if you can scrounge enough kit to make it work.

 

That's the rub though. In this case the original poster is even nervous about providing more than a single monitor feed for headphones. Once you're in a separate room, the complexity goes way up, with the need for two-way video, two-way audio monitoring and so on. If you have the resources and the experience, it can sound very nice...but it's not a technique for the faint-hearted or the beginner.

 

And, beyond that, as good as the results can be from a purely engineering point of view, I have to wonder if not seeing a band/orchestra might change the experience for the audience. There's little enough truly live music these days and this makes me wonder if it might be worth compromising on absolute sound quality to give the audience a more "live" experience.

 

That, however, is for a different thread!

 

Finally, just to end, I'll say to dfinn that, while I understand some of his reasoning to use wedges not headphones, I really do think he should reconsider the 'phones idea, I hope I didn't scare you off with my mention of multiple aux feeds. This was just an example of what CAN be done, not what has to be, and the same feed that you plan for your wedges could go to headphones. However, headphones will eliminate problems of spill to the audience or into your on-stage mics, and will certainly make things easier if the band (or at least the MD) need some vocals in the monitor mix (which I give you 50/50 odds they will). I have to say, the thought of monitor wedges on the floor between the cast and the audience worries me.

 

Bobl

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Just Some Bloke - Thanks for the kind comment, you have seen my point exactly.

 

Moving amps into separate room isn't an option if the band are in the hall. However I could move the entire band into another room (don't ask why I could do one but not the other).

 

I spoke to the M.D. about putting the band in another room, and said I could set up a video feed to the room so they could see the actors. However I couldn't do it the other way so the actors could see the M.D. so the band will be in the hall.

 

With regards to the monitoring, headphones may work, but again the M.D. wants the musos to be able to "Sense what is going on around them", which I agree with cans on you loose this ability a bit. This would also mean getting in some headphone amps, loads of extensions for headphones, giving the M.D. a headset and mics and then trying to keep all this tidy and working in a very small pit. Wheras 2 - 4 wedges at low volume which can be hidden under the stage extnesion on the band's side will be much simpler, won't cost anything extra.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

[Lamplighter]

Daniel

I would firmly agree with Bobbsy on trying for the headphone route if possible. I have struggled with the "band on floor in front of stage scenario " in many venues for a very long time. It takes a very good MD to keep the level to workable limits. A very simple system with either a single channel or two channels will work wonders, particularly in the key area of cast intelligibility. I know that it has all been said before but especially with a school/ college aged cast this intelligibility becomes crucial.

 

Brian

 

PS if you are putting the amps ender the extension, watch out with the bass. It can easily turn the extension into a vast 'sub' and produce standing waves which drown out the cast and band in a few areas of the hall and little level near the bass player.

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

The amps won't be under the extension, but the wedges will. The wedges will only be at the edge under the stage and to be honest aren't that great at bottom end stuff, as theyre only 12". As the wedges are directed at a sort of 30 degree angle upwards, so sound waves would be directed towards to top i.e. the plywood stage platform, would fitting polystyrene sheeting/ a similar material to absorb some of the sound and reduce the risk of producing a standing wave as the amplitude of the reflected wave would be much less with damping? Just a thought.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

[J4mie]

Hi

 

I did a show just before Christmas like this. guitarists used there PODs bass used a bass POD and we hired a good electric kit.

I borrowed a Behringer (I think) 8 way DI box. used a borrowed headphone amp, told them to bring there own headphones.

it gave me total control, and it sounded not too bad.

just convince the guitarists not to use there amps.

 

and ps the arbieter flats kit (single skins) is good, but the snare is crap.

 

Jamie