Video Mixing on the very, very cheap

[KevinE]

Has anybody mentioned the Edirol stuff yet? These are de rigeur in bars and clubs where video is played.

 

edirol video mixer PC based

 

edirol video mixer hardware based

[peternewman]

Admittedly I've never watched an MX50 through to the end on fleabay, but that seems very expensive for a second hand one (the last one on eBay went for £600 in fact). I didn't mention it explicitly before, as its out of her budget, but an Edirol V4 is roughly £700 new, although it's more consumer/DJ than an MX50. Edirol also did a V1, which appears to be discontinued now, it was less functional so may be cheaper. I don't know what price TBCs sell for, but I wonder if you would be cheaper buying a pair of TBCs and a vertical interval (posh :)) matrix, unless of course you want to wipe and not just cut.

 

Also another relevant topic is here, which may have some useful advice.

[Jivemaster]

They way I have seen it done (mixing cheaply) is to chose the projector carefully! I did actually see someone flipping between inputs on a consumer projector using the projector remote. OK they were all cuts - no fades and fx! But the output was clean and glitch free. The projector seemed to have some frame storage inside.

 

The way to get sync'd cameras on the cheap is to look at 24vAC security cameras. They sync off the AC supply -though they can be 180deg out, in which case you reverse the AC feed! They sync off on of the zero-crossing points, but a group needs a single phase of AC!

[Jennih]

Thanks for all your replies, it's given me some ideas.

 

So you guys know, I've got a budget of around £200 for this (I know, laughable which why I'm looking at eBay and trying to work out "bodger" approaches) and this won't come back to me as the school as an institute isn't supporting this with budget (It's run by people in the school, not by the school as an institution).

 

Of course, given that we do this for charity, if anyone wants to donate cash or kit... (Hey, doesn't hurt to be cheeky).

 

 

Has anybody mentioned the Edirol stuff yet? These are de rigeur in bars and clubs where video is played.edirol video mixer PC basededirol video mixer hardware based

 

Thanks, I'd love the V4 but it's out of my league and the PC based one, while in my price range, would need the PC to process the live feed.

 

I tried this as a solution the other day and got the usual 1/4 to 1/2 second (10 frame) lag. Given this is for running a live performance it's not going to work.

[boatman]

Hi Jenni,

 

It may be worth considering a hire for this show and buying later. Once you have convinced the treasure chest sentries of what is possible with the right kit, funding may follow. It's a gamble but might be worth it in the end.

[Jennih]

I must admit it's tempting. But if something's hired against my name and I'm liable if it's damaged, there's no way anyone but me is going to work it and given part of the reason for doing this is to get experience to the interested media studies students it'd sort of defeat the object.

 

I can see where you are coming from though, better to use the right kit and try to get legitimate financing for it. But I just can't see the school paying out for it.

 

Last year I ended up paying for the lighting rig ($200 of Maplins kit so not exactly high tech, but good enough), extra mics as we didn't have enough... You get the idea.

 

I suppose I should stop being a sap and let them get on with it without my cash, but I'm a sucker for hard luck cases.

[paulears]

Just to clarify, MX-10s have one synchroniser/TBC. As they are two inputs plus colour, you select which input is the most stable, and then the other source is timed to this - so if you have a few un-synced gadgets, the don't use them as the stable source. The sync is indicated by a green light that goes orange (from memory) when sync is dodgy. There's also a key input for a black and white source.

[Jennih]

Just to clarify, MX-10s have one synchroniser/TBC.

Thanks, that's worth knowing. That'd probably blow the matrix idea unless the sync can stablise after being switched...

[Olie]

It seems to me that your standards do not fit the budget. If you want quality you have to pay for it and £200 is not enough. You will have to make a compromise somewhere.

 

Given what you have said so far I think the PC route is your best option. You mentioned a 1/2 sec delay on the video when switching between cameras with software. The new version of Screen Monkey (in Beta) will switch live video within 200ms when run on a decent spec computer with a good graphics card. You also need to have quite a good capture card. If you run the software on a Vista PC you will get fade transitions.

 

I know of people switching 6 cameras quite happily from a PC with 6 capture cards. The other things such as playing video and visualizations from the PC should be no problem.

 

My advice if you do go down the PC route is not to mix rolls. Keep 1 PC dedicated to video and introduce another PC if you need to do sound. If you have it all on 1 PC and something goes wrong you loose everything.

 

Finally the PC route will not be as good as dedicated hardware but it can come close given careful setup. It will however be much cheaper and if you are like me spare PCs are easy to come across.

[Jennih]

Hi,

 

It's not the delay on switching I'm talking about, it's the delay in processing the video. When going through the PC (and I've got access to some pretty fast kit, IT is my main line of work) there is a noticable delay between the live action and the camera output.

 

Given this is a live show being projected up on a big screen, the delay is offputting to say the least. Believe me, if a PC could do it I'd be much happier.

 

However, if I'm happy to use second hand kit from eBay and be creative, I don't think a hardware solution for the live video is out of the question. Tough yes, but not out of the question.

 

I'v started making phone calls for AV kit and have got lucky on a few items (Wireless mics for silly money, etc.) and have even phoned the major broadcasters. So as they say, you never know.

[Olie]

I have seen such a delay on old capture cards but most of the modern good quality cards that I have used do not have a perceivable delay (certainly not 1/2 sec). It is a bit dependent on your system settings though.

[David Duffy]

The new version of Screen Monkey (in Beta) will switch live video within 200ms when run on a decent spec computer with a good graphics card.

Not to hijack the thread too much, but when's the new version of Screen Monkey due out? I have a similar need.

[Olie]

I have just had a thought, how big did you set the buffer size on the capture card. Most capture cards have a buffer which fills up before it sends the video data to the PC. This causes a delay in the video which is the time it takes for the buffer to fill up. If you reduce the size of the buffer then it will fill up quicker and so send the video data sooner. This will almost certainly improve the lag.

[jimnexus]

Jennih,

 

Regarding your "delay".

 

If your cameras are standard 720 x 576 PAL tv and your pc is outputting 800 x 600 or higher then there's some scaling being done somewhere.

This is where your delay is taking place. You'll find it almost impossible to remove unless you hire some serious kit.

A professional scaler / switcher will cost alot and I know you're working on a budget.

You'll reduce the delay by getting your output res as close to your camera source as possible.

We use Kramer, Analog way and Extron switchers that cost £2500.00 upwards and they still have a tiny delay of a frame or two.

What I'm trying to say is that unless you invest (hire) you'll not eliminate it altogether.

You can only slim it down until you're happy.

 

You could scan convert your computer graphics down to TV res. (720 x 576) and use your vision mixer for everything and thus eliminate delay altogether, by using the video input on your projector.

The downside to this is that your computer gfx will look a little ropey depending on the quality of your scan convertor.

 

hope this helps.

be happy to help if you have some specific questions.

 

Jimnexus

[Jennih]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks for all your help and I thought you'd like to hear an update on the situation.

 

Well, after a bit of cajoling, I managed to get the school to pay for some of the kit we needed (they covered the wirless mics as they could make a justification to the head for getting them, which saved me a couple of hundred) which freed more cash for a video mixer.

 

So I'm not the owner of Numark AVM01 which will do the job quite nicely.

 

I've tested it today and it does everything I need without the need for synced sources and also does PIP which is a great bonus.

 

I managed to get two "damaged" Mojo Spinmaster units ( a 1 and a 3) for £50 which took all of 1/2 hour to fix and so all I need is a DMX unit and I'm totally sorted for the show.

 

Again, thanks for all your help. It looks like all systems go! :(