Bobbsy Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 A couple of current topics in the Sound area piqued my curiosity enough to start this one. How many of us are using MP3 (or other Bit Rate Reduced) files in a professional or semi professional situation? Being an old fogey, I'm simply not willing to compromise on quality and use compressed/BRR files for sound work. I produce my sounds in wave format and keep them that way for the final playback, be it from CD or (more often now) off a computer hard drive. The closest I've come to MP3 quality was a flirtation with minidisk back when that format was common. Even then I could hear the difference but ATRAC was significantly better than most of the 128kb MP3 files that seem to be floating around. The main reason most people give for wanting to use MP3 is a need to minimise file size but that has, honestly, never been an issue for me. I make up show-specific CDs or on-computer directories and, even at .wav sizes, have never come close to running out of space. Similarly, I feel no need to carry my whole collection of music or effects with me at all times...and certainly don't want to pick and choose specific clips needed for a show out of literally gigabytes of storage. I'd rather have just the stuff needed for a specific show available at any given time. However, there are pretty obviously some other philosophies out there now and I'm curious to hear how and why people are using things like iPods and MP3 players. I hope this can be a reasoned discussion rather than an argument! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diaego Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I used mp3 sound effects from a Laptop working in the Neeld Hall in Chippenham, 2006 Oliver Production. I guess it's easier but much more prone to lag, Glitches, and basically screwing up in general. mind you that could've just been my mistake. iTunes. ^^; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 well I certainly wouldn't trust iTunes with a job like that. there is more suitable software for a production environment (generally at a cost but one that outweighs having a track fail) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Corporate BGM - I use an ipod and music in Apples lossless format. Otherwise, WAV for me. I do carry all my SFX and BGM with me - I bought a 200gb pocket hard drive for $150, which I use for archival, and I use Media Catalogue Studio to index everything. I think the main problem, is so many people (ie clients and directors and the like) don't understand that they are sacrificing quality when they go to MP3 - whilst it may sound identical through their $20 ear buds, or small stereo system, in larger (well tuned and designed) systems it becomes more noticeable. I would be interested in finding out how many audio CD's that I get given by clients for shows contain music that was once an MP3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 I suppose I better come clean and admit I tend to have all my sound effects with me too...on a 320 gig external hard drive and also in a case of DVD-ROMs that I keep as my backup/archive. However, I don't run a show off either of these formats: I build up cues and put only the necessary files in a specific show folder on the internal hard drive for the duration of a production. (Along with CD backups, both in music CD and raw data formats in case of trouble.) I can't legislate for material I might be given by clients...but I'm in the fortunate position of usually building my own cues from my own material rather than playing somebody else's stuff. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 I would be interested in finding out how many audio CD's that I get given by clients for shows contain music that was once an MP3. I've had that a few times. It usually arrives with the assumption that because it's on a CD, it must be "CD quality" Storage is plentiful & cheap now. Converting music / FX to MP3 is simply another unnecessary step as far as I can see. When designing a show, you assemble all your material, and put it on CD, MD, samplers, HDDs or whatever. Why would you need to ever convert it to MP3 in the midst of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackerr Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 well I certainly wouldn't trust iTunes with a job like that. there is more suitable software for a production environment (generally at a cost but one that outweighs having a track fail)You wouldn't use iTunes for a job like what? I wouldn't use it for sound effects playback because there is a lag after you hit play if it has been more than a minute or so since the last cue. On the other hand I use it every show for walk in music. I have been using it regularly since iTunes was first released, and I have never had a track fail, and the ease of use for changing playlists live during playback, and managing my library in general is great. On the question of compressed files, most of the tightly cued sound files that I play come off my Instant Replay, which being quite old, only plays Dolby AC-2 encoded files. These are fairly heavily compressed, but sound fine. Newer models of the Instant Replay play wav files as well. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diaego Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Apple Lossless Files must take up quite a bit o' space, but with the new 160gb iPod? I gotta' get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew.Steve Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 Very sorry. But, even though this is somewhat late, I would not contemplate less than .wav files! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 I've ran a soundtrack for a dance piece in Apple Lossless format directly from the iPod. The soundtrack was continuous, including long silent sections, so didn't require any cueing. 99% of the time it was fine, but it did have a minor hiccup once or twice when going from one track to another, even though the track marker was in the middle of a continuous piece of music. But quality-wise, it was fine. I wouldn't consider running any music for a show in MP3 format, although in some cases SFX or pre-show music might be OK I guess. We arrived at this compromise because I wasn't happy running from CD as it was a commissioned score and came on a 'green' CD. I've had too many theatre CD players fall over in the middle of these to trust them to run a whole show from. The composer wasn't happy with the loss of quality involved in going to minidisc, so the iPod was a quick and cheap solution. I wouldn't like to run a show from it that involved any cues though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Some Bloke Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 I would be interested in finding out how many audio CD's that I get given by clients for shows contain music that was once an MP3. I've had that a few times. It usually arrives with the assumption that because it's on a CD, it must be "CD quality" I remember back in the days when we first banned cassettes for playback, some clients found friends with the relevant software for their PC and just transfered the show from cassette to CD. Hadn't really got the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyBrooks Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 As long as the playback source is reliable, and has good quality DAs, and the audio has been compressed at a suitibly high rate, of, and this is my preference, as least 256kbs, preferably 320, I honestly can NOT hear any difference in sound quality when a track is played into a room full of people, over a PA. I have to admit, yes, at home, in the confines of my comfy sofa, surrounded by a sympathetic room, and a top notch hi-fi, I can hear differences between all, and still prefer the warmth, and dynamic range of vinyl over the hardness of CD, and the fatigue of listening to MP3s, however, when I get to work, and am listening to a system I can't hear the difference, maybe a little less clarity, but EASERA, and Smaart havn't thrown anything at me either, no anomolies, just a drastic hf cutoff from the compression at low bit rates (think there was a thread about this a while ago, mods, please stick a link in). 99% of the time, when I'm stuffing audio into a system I'll use an iPod, I have stopped carrying anything other than one of two CD's around with me, and love the conveniance of having all sweeps, tones, and noises to hand. With the advent of some really usefull tools coming in, can knock up effects at home, save them onto a usb key, and pump the MP3's into the comuter systems and away you go... Cassette too, have run shows from them, with very reliable tascam machines, never a problem, just made sure used good quality tapes... Revox B77 anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 I was filming at a conference a few months back where they were playing "between event" music from itunes on a mac. PA was d&b C7 (if memory serves) and the compressed music sounded awful compared to proper CDs. Maybe the soundcard was contributing, and I'm sure it would have been less obvious through a lesser PA, but it's certainly not a route I would ever want to go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackerr Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 the compressed music sounded awful compared to proper CDs. Maybe the soundcard was contributing, and I'm sure it would have been less obvious through a lesser PA,Maybe the bad choice to over compress the audio was contributing. Using mp3 or any other compressed format doesn't mean you have to use the most highly compressed version of it. Yeah, 128kbs mp3 files are pretty obvious, and not that pleasant to listen to, but 320kbs or Apple Lossless files are still fairly small and sound fine. Some codecs sound better than others as well. This discussion started out about compressed files, but there is also no reason not to run un-compressed files in your favorite playback software either. All of my system tuning and test music is in iTunes as wav files. My external soundcard has converters as good as you will find in most CD players as well as the capability to go digital into a digital console, why would I want to carry around a bunch of CDs when I can fit the good bits from hundreds of CDs on a 160GB pocket drive? And I can easily make playlists from any of those thousands of cuts on the fly while other music is playing. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted November 18, 2007 Share Posted November 18, 2007 For show files, I always use WAVs of the direct from CD kind. For pre-show music, I'm much less fussy, and high bit-rate MP3s will do. The reason is to give the playback software less to do, all it needs to do is to get audio data to the hardware. The question of "which codec" simply doesn't arise. Size has ceased to be an issue; an entire musical with backing tracks and the entire kitchen sink fits on a USB memory stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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