foh nd monitor mix from one "quality" desk

[dbuckley]

'Tis interesting. When the GL2400 usurped the GL2200, the matrix outs (which meant the loss of a couple of stereo return inputs) was controversial move, as anyone you ask would tell you nine out of ten GL users would never use the matrix outs. Which I think is true, but it was really ballsy of A&H to make a top end feature available on a (what is in all honesty) a low end desk, and it's great that they went with it, as it means the GL2200 is now the first line choice for a lot of applications which previously would have been hard or inconvenient. And the BoogieMan's unconventional performance arrangements are exactly such an example.

 

I didn't get my Christmas wish; a GL2400 with VCAs.

[The Boogie Man]

Would someone care to explain the matrix outs, I thought they were what we were talking about, but it appears from a couple of the posts that we have two "types" of outs, the multiple outs (grps/L+R/mono) I've been bleating on about needing and the matrix outs. :P

[dbuckley]

Ok.

 

Matrix outs come from a seperate mixer after what you call the "multiple outs", that enable you to create additional outputs by mixing (depending on the desk) the L,R, subgroup, and sometimes aux busses. In a traditional theatre doing a musical with a pit band, as an example, if you had all your mics on one pair of L/R groups, and the instruments on another set of groups L/R, using the matrix outs you can have additional mixes of band versus vocals for the "front fills", little speakers just in front of the orchestra pit, where the band is loud, but the vocals quiet. And another mix for the balcony fills.

 

Take a look at this hi-res picture of the GL2400 master section, and the matrix (7x4) is about in the centre. (Edit: marked MTX1 thru MTX4)

[The Boogie Man]

Ok, got that. It's not something I'd ever use, but I can see the point.

Cheers David.

[dbuckley]

Let me quote myself from above:

 

As I understand it, you want just one mix, but being able to control that one mix output level a few times over.

 

This is what matrix out desks do.

 

This is exactly what you want to do.

 

Two sets of outputs of the same thing.

 

Thats what matrix desks do.

 

The easiest way is the mix on the L/R faders. The you either use the L/R outs to feed the mains out, or better still, one pair of the matrix, lets say MTX1 and MTX2. You then use MTX3 and MTX4 for your stereo foldback. Its quicker to set up than its taken me to type this...

 

What you've done in the past is "misused" group outputs to get the same end result. Thats the problem when the only tool you have is a hammer; every problem looks like a nail. There are right ways and other ways to do things, and the GL2400 allows you to do what you want the right way.

[The Boogie Man]

I see what your saying about the group outputs not being used for their proper purpose, but in my situation there is nothing to group mix like you would with a choir or big drum kit.

I have grasped the principle, I could if I was doing it corectly mix the two guitars on a grp then the vocals on another, then it's balanced to go to the main L+R.

Then the matrix would be used to send the finished sound to various locations.

For my small mix, once it's mixed at the channels if the desk can send the sound to 3 outputs, sorted. ( I understand though that it is a sort of bodge)

 

baz

[Matt Riley]

For further info: Carey from allen and heath has done a powerpoint explaining matrix mixing, and it's here: http://www.allen-heath.com/US/dl.asp?file=406

 

For the record I would still use the prefade auxes for monitors rather than using up matrix outs btw.

 

Matt

[Bobbsy]

Although taking this slightly away from the original topic, I have to say that I agree with Matt and tend to use pre-fade auxes for monitor feeds as well. This has the advantage of allowing much more "customisation" of what is included in each monitor mix, as well as how the combination is balanced. It also ensures the monitor is always available to the musician regardless of whether a channel is faded up or not.

 

This is not to say that a matrix isn't useful...but I tend to use them for things like backstage feeds or video recordings where a version of the FOH mix is wanted, but customised and rebalanced for each specific purpose.

 

Bob

[MarkPAman]

In my experience many one man bands want exactly the same mix in the monitors as FOH, so using auxes only makes this more difficult.

 

Also I don't think that using group outputs is a bodge, why make them available if you're not "supposed" to use them.

 

However, Mr Buckley's suggested use of the matrix outputs does make sense, as it would give you back the groups, which may be useful, even for a very simple setup. Would a guitar group that has both the guitar & its effects be useful, and the same for the vocals?

 

Getting slightly more advanced; vocal to two groups, one compressed & one not allows the amount of compression to be adjusted with two faders, which may be easier than reaching for the compressor in a rack. (See Dave Rat)

[The Boogie Man]

Marks last comment is bang on. I have always had more than enough pre fade aux's, the reason for not using them is as mark says, there's only me there so I have to hear what the audience is hearing ( as much as is practicly possible).

 

You have to take into account that in a one man show, nothing is "on the fly" The mix between guitars and vocals is all done in rehearsals, marked and then left. (once the balance is set right at the mixer it is still right no matter where you go. Only the rooms change the final sound. True the sound can be set for mons using pre fade aux's, but what if I want to turn the whole mons mix up as I'm hanging a chord between a verse and chorus, 6 stereo channels, 12 aux knobs, It's not going to happen is it!

[johnhuson]

but what if I want to turn the whole mons mix up as I'm hanging a chord between a verse and chorus, 6 stereo channels, 12 aux knobs, It's not going to happen is it!

 

Yes but most desk apart from the really small ones have Aux master knobs, pretty sure the Soundcraft 200 you have already has this function, could be a temporary work round for you if you don't want to keep the 200.

 

Also unless I'm missing something, to achieve what you want you can use your existing Soundcraft 200. Just route all the channels to Group 1+2 as well as Mix then take your monitor L+R from Group 1+2 outputs and your main FOH from Mix L+R outputs.

[The Boogie Man]

I agree John, I can use the aux master, but it's still fiddley compared to a set of faders, plus I can see the output on leds for all the mixes.

 

The soundcraft (unless there's something wrong with mine) doesn't work like that. I've tried.

Having the whole mix on 1+2 for mons and then on L+R for foh is ok until you lower the faders for mons on the 1+2 grp, then the foh drops too. I think it's because the route from the channel strip to L+R is through grps 1+2 and 3+4 so altering the groups affects the main L+R.

[Shez]

I think it's because the route from the channel strip to L+R is through grps 1+2 and 3+4 so altering the groups affects the main L+R.

 

If that's the case (and can't be switched any differently), why not feed FOH from the group output and your monitors from L&R? Or do you want to be able to adjust FOH independently as well? ;)

 

As a (slight) aside, on many occasions when doing sound, I've had to try to explain that I can't give someone what the audience hears in their monitor because what the audience hears is a mixture of the PA and what comes off the stage acoustically. This may be less of an issue with a one man band, but thought I'd mention it in passing...

[The Boogie Man]

Hi Shez, I tried your idea ( I even switched the fader knobs round so that 1+2 were red 3+4 were the yellow knobs from L+R and L+R were the red knobs from 3+4) but it still doesn't work because raising the foh on the groups raised the mons on L+R.

In the end I decided on just getting a new desk.

 

I know what you mean about the mix of foh and backline, but I have no backline It's all DI to the mix.

 

Sorry to all if my last few posts have seemed a bit negative, all help and advice is always welcome.

baz

[johnhuson]

The soundcraft (unless there's something wrong with mine) doesn't work like that. I've tried.

Having the whole mix on 1+2 for mons and then on L+R for foh is ok until you lower the faders for mons on the 1+2 grp, then the foh drops too. I think it's because the route from the channel strip to L+R is through grps 1+2 and 3+4 so altering the groups affects the main L+R.

 

Ah, now this is because of the way the stereo returns are routed on the 200 Delta, having checked the manual to refresh my memory, try running it with the Ret button turned on in the B section above the group faders and make sure that the Sub button isn't selected. This should route the group signal direct to the group out and not the L+R bus, side effect is that you will loose the meters for the group as they are now metering the stereo return rather than the group bus.

 

If that doesn't work or you can't live without group metering, then why not route your channels to all four groups and use Group 1+2 for FOH & Group 3+4 for Monitors and just leave the L+R Bus alone, this should certainly work however the group routing is set.

 

Page 22 of the manual (which can still be downloaded from Soundcraft) has some useful block diagrams showing the routing of the Returns & Group outputs.

 

Hope that helps!