Dmills Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 There is something to be said for proper crossbar key switches (as opposed to conductive rubber), and having accurate tactile feedback is vital. The worst keyboard bar none I have ever tried to use was 'clicky', but the click did NOT coincide with the actual contact closure! A touchscreen might make a reasonable additional IO device (Think the tablet on a Pearl) , but I don't see any way to make it a really useful primary interface, I want to be looking at the stage not the damn desk. I could see the use of a touchscreen for the sort of context sensitive, infrequently used stuff that tends to get an LCD surrounded by buttons conventionally, but not as a substitute for a good keyboard for fast data entry. Now, I have a strong preference for a command line interface for plotting, preferably one with a real grammar to it, just what you are used to I guess. Whatever you do, the interface needs to be **FAST** to setup, and showing me a busy cursor (or worse an unexpected modal dialogue) at any point while I am plotting will fail to impress. Another issue, please ensure that any keyboards are in a contrasting colour to the desk metalwork (Black switches on a black background are annoying), and please ensure that any screens can be turned down far enough, plenty of LCDs have a stupidly high maximum brightness for our uses. Regards, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael.James Posted January 13, 2008 Author Share Posted January 13, 2008 Out of interest, what language are you going to be coding in? I'm also guessing that you dont care at all about cross platform support, due to the use of the "Microsoft Windows Presentation Foundation framework". Although this is ringing alarm bells in my head. Especially words such as ".net framework", and "Vista". Remember lighting desks should be functional, and don't have to worry about having fun visual effects like OS X has! I'm currently programming in C#. I have looked at Linux and OS X. I choose windows not because it's what I use. It isn't my primary operating system, but it provides me with what I believe is the best integrated development environment. I looked at the pros and cons to each platform for developing this application. I found that Mac OS X doesn't have a very nice IDE (I learnt on windows) and It feels very alien to me. Linux was a very close contender. Its open source, it's very powerful. Again and issue with finding a nice IDE to use meant I ruled it out. Windows however, Vista not being a great operating system, does fulfill my requirements. It has some very powerful technology which I will be utilizing. WPF – Why have I chosen to use it? It comes down to the fact that WPF includes broad integration, resolution dependence, hardware acceleration, XAML and of course, easy development. It's not perfect, but it is very powerful. For people how are unsure of exactly what WPF is, it is going to replace the graphics system in Windows. The new version of Yahoo Messenger uses WPF. However I'm not sure if this in an issue as I don't know what level of market you're aiming at? Well as I have said, I'm not building this as something to sell. It's a project to build a lighting desk, I want to see what it's like. If people want it, I will make them. But I am simply not going to build a console which mirrors every other product on the market. If I were to say "I want to make money", I would simply carbon copy other kit. With regard to being fast to set up, this is down to the way you work, as much as the console. I found using the GrandMA took a long time (as a newbie) to set up. I am very much used to working with a Strand 530i, which I just sit down on and it's ready to go. I can tweak things to get it how I like it, but it never takes more than a few minutes. Cheers Mic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 My 2c. In a lighting desk I want would be very much like the current grandMA full size - I think they got a lot right with the desk, there are just a few extra features I would want. The key interface items though: Motorised faders, with all the abilities they have on the grandMA (ie the ability to see dimmer channels as well as your pages of executors), as well as the ability to load the RGB/CMY channels on selected fixtures onto three faders for use whilst programming (ie another set of special masters) Buttons - again, like the grandMA, however, the ability to store pallets and groups on the buttons as well. Some form of tactile quick page change buttons, with the ability to enter a page number, instead of having to page up/down multiple times, or open up the page window on the touch screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 The software has of course become absolutely vital to all the pro consoles and it's interesting to see the slightly different approaches and ideas from the main players. There is a clear direction now from all manufacturers to provide a unified software available on different levels of hardware, depending on your requirements, and it is often only the control surface that you are paying for. Indeed many offer the software for free to run on PC. For me the key is in flexibility giving the user as many ways as possible to achieve their goal, both in programming (especially speed) and in operation. Everything must be immediate, positive and reliable. There are ideas in GrandMA, Chamsys, Avo and Vista that I love. For specific examples I suggest looking at Avo implementation of palettes for busking, especially 'quick palette' mode and ease of timed recall where it is all about minimum number of button presses. Check Chamsys playback options - an incredible range and built-in 'media server' type options. GrandMA for sequence master concept and an overall different way of rock'n'roll approach. If only they were all in the same console without it being too confusing, without bugs, with plenty of playbacks/preset fades and assignable buttons.... It would be interesting to see what you can come up with. Good luck! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakefraser Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 A quick comment regarding the tactility of touch screens - there is a (sort of) compromise... Optimus Maximus by Art Lebedev has individual keyboard keys, each with its own individually controllable OLED colour screen. They also do a few other devices on a similar thread, but most are just concepts or simply not as useful (due to small number of buttons!) Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Optimus Maximus by Art Lebedev has individual keyboard keys, each with its own individually controllable OLED colour screen. That link has been floating round the interweb for soooooooooo long, and was really looking like vapourware for a while. Even now, they are only taking orders for the first production run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Indeed! But perhaps it does show us possibilities with the newer display technologies as they get cheaper. OLED does give options of colour and great visibility without all the contrast issues of LCD. Add to this a pen input for quickly drawing legends or via OCR and things are looking very nice. It's also interesting to see that they are managing to do this at an affordable level for a non-specialist market. That would suggest it is already viable for manufacturers in our sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Optimus Maximus by Art Lebedev has individual keyboard keys, each with its own individually controllable OLED colour screen. The EOS basically does this. Each desk is supplied with special adaptors that quickly slot into the touch screens. These provide you with a panel of hard tactile buttons right below clear plastic windows (which are wired into the desk, rather than simply pressing the touch screen). Once you slot in said adaptor, that section of the screen automatically detects them and turns the touchscreen into....well, whatever you want really. Each key can be assigned whatever you want...channels, macros, subs, etc - and each button is marked up by the LCD accordingly. Hard to explain unless you've actually seen it - but I know the EOS isn't (wasn't?) that widely available in the UK right now, so not many people are familiar with the system. They work so well, we've actually fitted three of them to the desk (taking up 3/4 of the available touchscreen space). I'll happily say that the three-way Eos system I'm working with right now has been one of the most joyful control solutions I've used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael.James Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 The Optimus Maximus keyboard is very clever and something I have looked at. I can defiantly see a use of its technology within our industry. I would not be at all surprised if we start having buttons such as these which display images of gobos and block colours for our macros keys. It is possible to buy OLED displays, and it's something I shall look into. I however worry that this technology may be taken too far and with constant dynamic button changes, it may confuse users. Thank you for all your opinions so far, it really is interesting to hear peoples opinions on the matter. Cheers Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psylocyprine Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I found a good way to use your iphone or ipod touch as a control surface with midi routing: - http://thrill.artificialeyes.tv/- http://www.iamas.ac.jp/~aka/iphone/ In fact, this is not multitouch, but I think it will be in a couple of days... And you can use it with all the softwares that have midi support! If you want to use a software without midi support you can use a VNC server (vine for example) and use vnsea to control the server, perfect for focusing but too slow for live acting I think. I use now my ipod touch with Puredata, everything is freeware, and I can use it with an Enttec or Udmx to output DMX. With Puredata I can use every controllers (midi, osc,...) and with a merger I put also my chamsys Wing to output palettes and complicate effects for moving light. It's not very easy for someone who is not familiar with computers but now I can do everything...with every controllers...and I'm really happy with this...let's try it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Congo Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 one more thought for you looking to the future, is CMY and RGB really has had its day, think more CMYA or RGBW , most new and future LED units are going to have build in whites and ambers as well as RGB, on the moving light front nearly all CMY colour mixing units have a CTO wheel or flag system too. It might be worth thinking beyond the 3 dial colour system, Good Luck Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekij Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 RGB really has had its day, think more RGBWReally? I'd have said that RYGB was more useful, however we should be commanding the unit with RGB, whether or not it decides to use a white or yellow LED instead of (some of) the RGB to maintain the correct colour output should be the lanterns busines not the consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Really? I'd have said that RYGB was more useful, however we should be commanding the unit with RGB, whether or not it decides to use a white or yellow LED instead of (some of) the RGB to maintain the correct colour output should be the lanterns busines not the consoles. Or RGBA of course. Though I agree it should be the fixtures responsibility, so should an overall intensity channel but few seem to appreciate that. There would certainly be no harm in designing options on 4 or even 5-way colour control for when required. Similarly a virtual dimmer is essential. I however worry that this technology may be taken too far and with constant dynamic button changes, it may confuse users. Giving maximum options whilst making the interface accessible and intuitive for any level of operator is the hardest challenge. Coding is undoubtedly the easy part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosxuk Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 one more thought for you looking to the future, is CMY and RGB really has had its day, think more CMYA or RGBW , most new and future LED units are going to have build in whites and ambers as well as RGB, on the moving light front nearly all CMY colour mixing units have a CTO wheel or flag system too. It might be worth thinking beyond the 3 dial colour system, Good Luck Mark I think any form of CMY / RGB has had it's day really. Consoles are already starting to go over to the HSV model, and keeping the implementation of the LEDs / wheels / flags hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick S Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I agree. HSV is my preferred way of dealing with color, and most of the consoles I use support it. On the subject of fixtures and color choices - I work a lot with SeaChangers, with are actually CMYG. So it's not just amber and white :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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