Legal age of working at height

[Ike]

Working confidently at height takes practice, as with anything it's a skill best learnt young and one to which there aren't any shortcuts. In my opinion the very best place to pick up the basics is in school where pressure to get the 'job' done is likely to be less and you're more likely to have time to learn at your own pace. Surely a sensible approach to health and safety would actively encourage interested students to partake in 'working' at height in a relatively controlled and safe environment?

 

Rigging lights for a school play is in my opinion no more work than playing in a school band, building something in DT or taking part in PE.

[David A]

Well said Ike.

[GreatBigHippy]

And yet access to space, time to rig, skilled personnel available are often a lot more restricted than in the industry.

If we are talking about a whole session given to going up a ladder and working with them safely then thats fine, just like the course we all probably have taken part in at some point.

But, when it comes to shows we have very little time to work with. In that situation the best of us occasionally make mistakes or cut some corners. Teenagers have neither the experience or the maturity to deal effectively with this. I'm sure you remember your lack of a sense of mortality at that age, its a risk taking age and this has its benefits. But when I am responsible for the safety and well being of said teenagers I think I would rather have the security of knowing that they are all absolutely safe. As was well put in "The School of Rock" parents have no sense of humor when it comes to their children.

As I said

Do your risk assessment, read the relevant guidelines, make your own decision, can't really say more than that.

 

As for the band/DT comment. In DT they cannot use welding torches or dangerous equipment until fully trained and supervised. EDIT: In the case of welding they cannot do this until they are in the sixth form.

And if you can find me a dangerous way of using a guitar (barring soaking it in lighter fuel) I'll accept the analogy.

 

If you want to find a standpoint to justify your own point of view then fine. We can argue back and forth all day about this. My trainees know that if they stay through to 6th form they get their chance. And by that time they have a lot of ground rigging experience where I can more easily check their work. Thats what I'm happy with. If anybody else feels happy doing it any other way there are plenty of arguments on this topic to support it. Just read them.

 

theHippy

 

Additional: I'm aware this comes across as confrontational. Its not usually how I roll but I feel this is an important topic and needs frank discussion.

[paulears]

It didn't last very long till we removed it, but a short time ago, someone posted a picture of their school technical team. Trouble was they had a picture of themselves behaving rather badly on a scaff tower - which they thought was fun! There are safe, competent and confident people of all ages - it's just that most people only develop two of those skills with experience. One of the problems is that all of us oldies remember when we were at school, and what we did - and this just supports opinion that all those unfriendly rules and safe practices are in fact quite sensible. I was reminded the other day that my first job, in an old Victorian school, turned into an arts centre, had been scrutinised by others. I'd forgotten, but rather than move a tower, I'd frequently get from tie bar to tie bar by swinging, Tarzan like from the grid, hand over hand - and once leaned out too far from the tower and it fell over, leaving me hanging.

 

My point is that although I'd forgotten I really did do this, at the time I thought I was fine. The memory in my head faded, but other people obviously thought I was mad. Nowadays, instead of keeping their thoughts to themselves, they'd be shouting loudly - just as we do here!

[Ike]

Teenagers have neither the experience or the maturity to deal effectively with this.

I'm not sure this is fair. I used to work at a climbing wall where those under 16 would regularly set up ropes for and belay other climbers. Five minutes of watching them work and a quick conversation was usually enough to decide if they were mature enough and had the necessary skills.

 

As for the band/DT comment. In DT they cannot use welding torches or dangerous equipment until fully trained and supervised. EDIT: In the case of welding they cannot do this until they are in the sixth form.

Six of so years ago when I was doing my GCSE DT (resistant materials) I would regularly use welding equipment and other potentially dangerous tools without direct supervision. OK there would always be a teacher in the room but they would usually be the other side of a welding screen helping other students and unable to hear what was going on over the normal workshop noise and chatter. To be able to use 'dangerous' tools we had to be shown how to operate them and have a teacher watch us the first time we used them, usually this would take only a few minutes at most.

 

And if you can find me a dangerous way of using a guitar (barring soaking it in lighter fuel) I'll accept the analogy.

Deafness, tinnitus or hearing impairment from high SPLs?

[steve h]

And if you can find me a dangerous way of using a guitar (barring soaking it in lighter fuel) I'll accept the analogy.

 

Deafness, tinnitus or hearing impairment from high SPLs?

 

And yet at pretty much any school band practice you'll probably find the sound levels well above safe levels, and of course at this age they wont even think of ear plugs!

[mrcog]

Teenagers have neither the experience or the maturity to deal effectively with this.

I'm not sure this is fair. I used to work at a climbing wall where those under 16 would regularly set up ropes for and belay other climbers. Five minutes of watching them work and a quick conversation was usually enough to decide if they were mature enough and had the necessary skills.

I have to agree with Ike on this one. Yes, there are many immature teenagers, however, by putting ALL teenagers in this group is no better than saying that all women can lift heavy flightcases. I personally am very mature and being a climber I understand risks associated with height and do my best to try and reduce them. Therefore I belive that it varys from person to person whether they should be allowed to work at height. And to call all teenagers immature is actually quite insulting, and by saying that all teenagers dont have the experience, everyone has to start somewhere.

 

As for the band/DT comment. In DT they cannot use welding torches or dangerous equipment until fully trained and supervised. EDIT: In the case of welding they cannot do this until they are in the sixth form.

 

Six of so years ago when I was doing my GCSE DT (resistant materials) I would regularly use welding equipment and other potentially dangerous tools without direct supervision. OK there would always be a teacher in the room but they would usually be the other side of a welding screen helping other students and unable to hear what was going on over the normal workshop noise and chatter. To be able to use 'dangerous' tools we had to be shown how to operate them and have a teacher watch us the first time we used them, usually this would take only a few minutes at most.

 

Again, my school operates the same policy, I have been welding(in school) since year 9 (13-14 years old) and the same sort of thing happens as Ike has already expained.

[Jamie Everington]

I was 16 when I did my working at heights course with SE, but many companies will not let you on the course until you are 18. When I was a student we also had to be supervised by a member of staff when using a ladder / scope.

Its a really useful course to have been on though!

[Ricky]

When I startec in theatre I was at school and was not alowed up the scope till I was 16 but as our balconys had fron of house face fill bars I was alowed to hang lights on these as all u had to do was stand on a 2 step ladder to reach them and that I found was the best way of learning how to rig, as I was able to work at my own speed and learn how to rig and focus from a young age.

[Simon Lewis]

And to call all teenagers immature is actually quite insulting, and by saying that all teenagers dont have the experience, everyone has to start somewhere.

 

Well it's legal for 17 year olds to drive. Are all young drivers immature? Of course not. Are there a significant number who lack the maturity to drive sensibly? Ask the insurers, the Police and the Ambulance crews...

 

I'm with GBH on this one. Despite what many often say, I believe safety is a skill to be learnt, not an issue of 'common sense'. Of course, those who are young can learn these skills, but the supervisory aspect is part of that ongoing training and experience.

 

Simon

[Andrew C]

I'm going to drift a bit further OT here and recommend a book to anyone who has to deal with adolescents. We had a talk to parents at the school where I work on "Sex, drugs & rock&roll", well alcohol really. The speaker quoted from this book a few times and I thought it sounded interesting, and it REALLY is. The author has kids and explains the physiological changes happen in the brains of teenagers. That's right, their brains are CHANGING, not fixed at about 6 as had previously been thought.

 

I've lent it to one of our house-masters, so I can't quote accurately but to paraphrase-

 

Teenagers brains develope the bit that tells them that driving fast, or bungee jumping is fun, but the bit that should tell them that it will hurt if it goes wrong develops a few years later.

 

 

All parents should read:- http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0747563160.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg and you can get it for less that the cost of a pint!

[David A]

I find the kids I work with are boringly responsible, totally more mature than I was at their age, it is not the kids I see doing stupid things, more the teachers, like putting the ladder on two tables to get higher and tradesmen balancing on planks between trestles.I simply never have an anxious moment when rigging shows in many schools, but I can understand the contempt kids must feel when told they can't go up a 3m ladder or a 4m scaffold, it insults their intelligence.And mine.

[Andrew Edwards]

Long answer (some of it slightly OT from OP)

 

This age group seems to be neglected when it comes to someone looking out for both safety and enabling real world experience.

 

The age group that seems to be the target for this discussion is 14-17. Any younger and the curriculum design means that for the most part, activities are not 'dangerous' or 'risky'. Any older (i.e. at university) and there are safety teams comprising of academics, ex industry, retired fire officers etc. and of course they are of the magic age, 18.

 

My point is this middle teen age group seems to get box tickers running the safety in their establishment. Sadly this is because in the event of an accident, no one will be prosecuted and they are insured. This usually results in the easy option of prohibition. This can, however, work in your favour (as a tutor) as the box ticker can accept activities if you can demonstrate safe practice. This is the crux of any activity regardless of age anyway. I always ask them if they have ever done a risk assessment. The usual answer is no. I then ask what they do everytime they cross the road. This is usually met with resounding aaahhh's.

 

I personally work on two levels with my tech theatre BTECs. If the student is in the theatre on college time then there are certain activities they cannot do at certain levels. For example you can only use the tallescope in your second year. This is more for fairness so as not to discriminate. (e.g. Q: why can't I do that when you let John do it? A: because you are not as mature!, this would not be useful) It is assumed that they have observed good practice in all areas and therefore have learnt some responsibility. If they are outside college hours, working for the theatre as a business (paid or volunteer) then they may be allowed to do more after demonstrating their ability. Generally the ones that do out of hours are the 'better' students anyway.

 

In my experience legislation does not stop you from doing things, it is those who misinterpret or take easy options that stop people from doing things.

 

 

Short Answer

 

If in doubt, contact your insurer.

[mal421]

Just to add my two penneth . Thinking back to my NEBOSH course . Surely the answer is in the 'Risk Assessment' . Bearing in mind that there is also a sub group of those who are under 18 yet above school leaving age . The easy answer is to say 'No' but that isn't always the best answer .

[johnlinford]

I find it very interesting the number of 17/18/19 year olds that come in to universities to tell me that it's illegal to use ladders anywhere, or only legal in theatres, or variations on this theme...

 

But then I also remember when I was at school persuading (with an awful lot of effort) the administration that we really really needed a new ladder for rigging/focusing from as the wooden step ladder was clearly inadaquate. We were eventually successful, thankfully.