Is this fair?

[berry120]

I'm a bit split on this one. I can see, like everyone else, that it's crap pay and quite frankly I don't think the company should be asking people to work for that sort of money, but on the other hand if it's going to get you other (better paid!) jobs / contacts it might be worth looking into. But then the flip side of that is if you get your face out there and known for crap pay people will often expect you to put up with the same crap pay next time...

 

I'd definitely say at the very least though ask the company why the pay's so rubbish, what the position offers back to you, etc. It might also help if you know others that might have worked for the company to ask them of their experiences and suchlike. If they've all come away with brilliant contacts and come off far better from working for them, then great. It might be worth looking into it a bit more. If you get the impression the company's just after the most work for the least possible payrate, that's when I'd just steer well clear and look somewhere else.

[Nick S]

When I was starting out as a professional, I accepted work with a company for the Edinburgh Fringe - who will remain nameless, but they are one of the biggest - and the work was for a pitiful amount. (worked out around £2.50 per hour). I did 14 - 16 hour days, 30 days in a row, 9 shows per day. Being honest, it was horrible.

 

So, AFAIK, the majority of Fringe venues don't actually 'employ' you, but offer you a volunteer position with a stipend, which is tax-free (I don't pretend to know how this works, because when I was working the Fringe, I didn't really care. All I remember is my 'pay-check' not really being a pay-check at all, and not counting as taxable income - and given the size of my employer, I'm pretty sure they ran the whole thing through their lawyers first). In defense of the Fringe, one should also probably remember that you're not going to come out of it making money, but at the same time you're getting paid enough to support yourself for that month. Fringe venues that actually pay hourly (which are few are far between) will pay above the minimum wage.

 

(I'm ignoring the smaller venues, who frequently screw everyone over. The larger venues are generally quite good, if only because they want to shield themselves from liability). And, whilst I don't know what venue you were working at, I'm very surprised you were working 16 hours non-stop. I worked at the Fringe for five years - whilst there were times I would turn up at 10AM and leave at 2AM, you can be sure I wasn't working all that time (it would probably be closer to 8 or 10 hours of work). I'd work 9 shows a day, but frequently that *really* meant 10 minutes of work every 90 minutes to turn the venue around, and the rest sitting on my arse.

 

...but outside of that one rather specific scenario, it would be hard to justify accepting such a crap rate. The point of the Fringe has never been to make money, but at the same time the companies I've worked for out there all make sure that 'workers' are sticking to sensible hours, have enough money to live on for the month, and are staying safe. I'm not so sure if the employers in this case would do the same...

[Ben]

Not sure if freelance work is covered in the NMW

 

It doesnt, as a freelancer you are contracted to do a specific job or work for a specific time you do nto have to be paid NMW for this and often you will be given a task and not a time to work for.

 

For example I program a lot, when I do I normally quote for a job based on whats needed and how long it shoudl take me, if it takes me double then thats my problem, if it takes half then I win. I.E if I quote based on 8 hours and it takes 16 I cannot and would not charge double just as if it takes 4 hours I wouldn't only charge only half.

[pisquee]

When I was starting out I worked for a major sound co at some festivals a few summers running. On average I guess these were about a month, on more than one site. The day rates started out low (can't remember how low, but probably similar or even less than the OP's rate) The hours were long in terms of start and finish times, but plenty of down time during the days, along with offering onsite accomm and catering. Each year I got better gigs at these events, and better pay and more responsibility. A lot of new starters were taken on every year, and the more experienced of us would supervise and train (as we would be supervised and trained by those above us) Over the years, I gained a lot of experience, and became better at my job for it, and also, because it was a well recognised name company I was working for, being on my CV on various gigs over the years looked good, and I can definately say that it gained me subsequent jobs that have paid well. For what I class as starting out as almost work experience to proper freelance rates, I am happy, and wouldn't change it if I had to do it again. If I had been more local to the company's base, I know I would have been offered more work outside of the peak periods.

[cfmonk]

However the NMW is just that, the MINIMUM wage that should be paid. It is also the LAW. Just like H&S its not something you can opt out of.

 

But if he is being subcontracted then it doesn't apply.

[zonino]

Not sure if freelance work is covered in the NMW

 

As freelance has no legal definition it is better to define as self-employed or PAYE, i.e.:

 

Freelance PAYE

Freelance self-employed

 

You are correct in that NMW does not apply to self-employed engagements. It also doesn't apply to charity workers, or true volunteers (who aren't given set hours, tasks, responsibilities etc)

[cfmonk]

It also doesn't apply to charity workers, or true volunteers (who aren't given set hours, tasks, responsibilities etc)

 

Have you got a reference for that / a definition for that? In another capacity I am currently involved in a small dispute about something similar to this.

[Guest lightnix]

The OP reminds me of the time a colleague was offered two weeks work as an LD on a theatre production. The first week involved producing a design, arranging the hire, a weekend's rigging, plotting and rehearsing and a week of shows down in Plymouth; followed by a transfer to a West End theatre over a single weekend, for a week-long run of shows starting on the Monday night. Then the subject of fees came up...

 

LD: So what's the pay for the job?

Producer: I thought that four would be about right.

LD: Four thousand? Yes, that sounds OK.

Producer: Four thousand??? Oh no no no - I meant four hundred.

LD: Four hundred.

Producer: Yes, four hundred.

LD: (hangs up telephone)

(Telephone rings)

Producer: Oh hi again - we got cut off back there.

LD: No we didn't, I put the 'phone down.

Producer: Oh - why did you do that?

 

I'll leave the rest to your imagination ;)

 

But I digress... To repeat a previous safety note on hours...

 

After 18 hours without sleep, your reaction times, judgement and general cognitive abilities are worse affected than if you had consumed the legal limit of alcohol for driving (source...)

A lack of deep sleep can reduce your body's ability to process carbohydrates, effectively turning you into a type 2 diabetic until you start sleeping properly again (source...)

 

...and that's just for starters.

 

Medical evidence, regarding the negative effects on health of sleep deprivation, has been mounting for years. Not only that, sleep deprivation is recognised as a form of torture.

 

It beggars belief IMO, that there are still so many companies (and crew) who ignore this evidence for the sake of expediency and profit; it can surely only be a matter of time before somebody in this business gets hit with a sleep deprivation-related lawsuit / prosecution.

 

 

 

The only thing to do when somebody offers you stupid rates, is to laugh at them and walk away.

[zonino]

having just been reading the act to find the appropriate section to answer cfmonk, I also believe that some self-employed freelancers may be entitled to the minimum wage if they are defined as a worker (which is thought by a number of people to be the case)

 

1 Workers to be paid at least the national minimum wage (1) A person who qualifies for the national minimum wage shall be remunerated by his employer in respect of his work in any pay reference period at a rate which is not less than the national minimum wage.

(2) A person qualifies for the national minimum wage if he is an individual who—

(a) is a worker;

(b) is working, or ordinarily works, in the United Kingdom under his contract; and

© has ceased to be of compulsory school age.

(3) The national minimum wage shall be such single hourly rate as the Secretary of State may from time to time prescribe.

(4) For the purposes of this Act a “pay reference period” is such period as the Secretary of State may prescribe for the purpose.

(5) Subsections (1) to (4) above are subject to the following provisions of this Act.

 

A worker is also entitled to holiday pay as well as their standard fee, unless it has been agreed that their standard fee includes their holiday pay, therefore the offer mentioned above may actually be due for the NMW.

 

 

cfmonk:

 

44 Voluntary workers (1) A worker employed by a charity, a voluntary organisation, an associated fund-raising body or a statutory body does not qualify for the national minimum wage in respect of that employment if he receives, and under the terms of his employment (apart from this Act) is entitled to,—

(a) no monetary payments of any description, or no monetary payments except in respect of expenses—

(I) actually incurred in the performance of his duties; or

(ii) reasonably estimated as likely to be or to have been so incurred; and

(b) no benefits in kind of any description, or no benefits in kind other than the provision of some or all of his subsistence or of such accommodation as is reasonable in the circumstances of the employment.

(2) A person who would satisfy the conditions in subsection (1) above but for receiving monetary payments made solely for the purpose of providing him with means of subsistence shall be taken to satisfy those conditions if—

(a) he is employed to do the work in question as a result of arrangements made between a charity acting in pursuance of its charitable purposes and the body for which the work is done; and

(b) the work is done for a charity, a voluntary organisation, an associated fund-raising body or a statutory body.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) above—

(a) any training (other than that which a person necessarily acquires in the course of doing his work) shall be taken to be a benefit in kind; but

(b) there shall be left out of account any training provided for the sole or main purpose of improving the worker’s ability to perform the work which he has agreed to do.

(4) In this section—

“associated fund-raising body” means a body of persons the profits of which are applied wholly for the purposes of a charity or voluntary organisation;

“charity” means a body of persons, or the trustees of a trust, established for charitable purposes only;

“receive”, in relation to a monetary payment or a benefit in kind, means receive in respect of, or otherwise in connection with, the employment in question (whether or not under the terms of the employment);

“statutory body” means a body established by or under an enactment (including an enactment comprised in Northern Ireland legislation);

“subsistence” means such subsistence as is reasonable in the circumstances of the employment in question, and does not include accommodation;

“voluntary organisation” means a body of persons, or the trustees of a trust, which is established only for charitable purposes (whether or not those purposes are charitable within the meaning of any rule of law), benevolent purposes or philanthropic purposes, but which is not a charity.

 

the full act can be found here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/ukpga_19980039_en_1

[cfmonk]

Thank you!

[Guest lightnix]

...I also believe that some self-employed freelancers may be entitled to the minimum wage if they are defined as a worker (which is thought by a number of people to be the case)...

Interesting - I've always understood the two to be mutually exclusive, i.e. being classed as a worker means that, by definition, you cannot also be classed as self-employed ;)

 

A quick Google reveals... Are you a 'worker', 'employee' or 'self-employed'?; here are some edited highlights...

There are three main categories of working individuals: 'employees', 'workers' and 'self-employed'...

 

...generally if rights apply to a 'worker' they also apply to an 'employee'.

 

If you are self-employed for tax purposes, you're normally 'self-employed' for employment rights purposes...

 

Employee

The majority of people in work are employees. You're classed as an employee if you're working under a contract of employment. A contract need not be in writing - it exists when you and your employer agree terms and conditions of employment...

 

Worker

This is a broader category than 'employees' but normally excludes those who are self-employed. A worker is any individual who works for an employer, whether under a contract of employment, or any other contract where an individual undertakes to do or perform personally any work or services.

 

Self-employed

If you’re self-employed, you do not have a contract of employment with an employer. You’re more likely to be contracted to provide services over a certain period of time for a fee and be in business in your own right. You’ll also pay your own tax and National Insurance Contributions (NIC).

 

You do not have employment rights as such if you're self-employed since you are your own boss and can therefore decide, for example, how much to charge for your work and how much holiday to give yourself. You do have some legal protection.

 

For example, you mustn't be discriminated against and you're entitled to a safe and healthy working environment on your client's premises...

(my emphasis)

 

That's just the basic intro - there are several useful links out from the above, to other related subjects.

[zonino]

So had I but apparently that isn't the case, in Redrow Homes (Yorkshire) Ltd v Wright, Roberts and others [2004] it was held:

 

a person (such as a tradesman in the building industry) who is not an employee will count as a worker for purposes of the Working Time Regulations, 1998, SI 1998/1833 if the following three conditions are fulfilled:

the work must be done under a contract;

 

the individual must by that contract "undertake to do or perform personally any work or services"; and

 

he must do so for another party to the contract who is not a customer or client of any business undertaking which he carries on.

 

It is widely believed that most self-employed freelancers within the media industry (closely related I'm sure you'll agree) fall into this area, although AFAIK there hasn't yet been a case where this has been proved (I may be wrong in this)

[robert bester]

I was helping with a pantomime at our local theatre in 2005 and amateur stage crew were not paid but two or three professionals were. In 2006, they reconsidered payment and I was paid £ 300 for 38 shows and 2 rehearsals, working a total of 85 hours 40 minutes from start of show to end of show (156 hours 2 minutes for when I was there before / after shows). This works out at £ 7.50 per show. In 2007, I was paid £ 350 for 38 shows and 4 rehearsals, working a total of 97 hours 2 minutes from start of show to end of show (138 hours when I was there before / after shows). This works out at £ 8.33 per show. Another stage crew member was paid £ 750 in 2006 and £ 900 in 2007. I have recently contacted the company and told them what I would like per show. I am still waiting to hear from them. What I was getting works out less than National Minimum Wage. I am only an amateur doing backstage work and not a professional. I have been helping backstage since December 1995. All I got from them was a piece of paper saying when I was wanted from and to, and how much I was getting. I make a note of show times and when I arrive and depart the venue for my own records.

 

Moderation: Edited to remove text formatting which made this post a bit difficult to read.

[paulears]

If they actually give you dates and times of when you are needed, and they supply the kit you will be using, and you don't have to provide anything - then I can't see any way you can be anything other than employed by them. I note you describe yourself as unemployed at the moment, so presumably are getting benefits - so next time you have a chat with them, mention this deal. One of our casuals has been long term unemployed, and doesn't have any problems with occasional work for us. I'd guess that as all income has to be declared to the Government, they are the best people to advise you on this. After all, any income you have is assumed under the rules to be at least minimum age, so if it isn't - they have a need to know.

[w/robe]

Robert

 

I can not tell from your post are you an amateur who used to do this for fun and is now getting a bit of money to cover expenses and buy you a beer or are you a professional being paid a pittance?

 

You say you are an amateur not a professional but that you want to be paid the minimum wage.