Religious discrimination in the theatre business?

[Rob_Beech]

Of course not, that's the point. I don't see why people would need to specify anything. Part of it is common sense, don't apply for a womans cheerleaders group if you're 6ft1 18stone and have a beard (like me), but also don't apply for anything you're not happy with doing, and let people who are happy with doing it do it.

[veen]

I concur. No need to get one's knickers in a twist, it's not like you are potentially losing out on legitimate work.

[Matt Riley]

I think you have, do you think it would be OK for a racist TM to put 'No Blacks, No Irish' on the bottom of a job advert because it would ruin the team spirit and they probably wouldn't enjoy working for him anyway?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Discrimination on the grounds of faith (or lack of faith) is, legally speaking a completely different kettle of fish from discriminating against people for stuff they have no choice about. While I think that the spirit of your post is right, I don't think the analogy you draw is fair.

Are you trying to suggest that nobody who identifies as Christian has ever had a substance abuse problem?

In my first post I didn't say it was the right solution. I certainly wouldn't do it, hence my remarks to that effect, I'm just trying to offer perhaps an insight as to some of the other underlying background reasons why an organisation would want to use the S7 Genuine Operational Requirement. I'm more than aware thankyou that most Christians are not perfect, white, happily married middle class people with great jobs and great kids.

 

M

[Johnno]

An English citizen in England should be able to hire and fire without interference from the state.

 

 

 

 

Probably OT, but...

 

I operate the song words software - handy, because that's how I started getting involved and am experienced, but also because it gives me something to do AND frees up my colleagues to worship themselves.

 

... am I the only one who wonders about the meaning of this part of this post?

[Just Some Bloke]

I've seen techs who are vehemently anti Christian working on Christian events. Their attitude was prejudiced against my faith, unprofessional, unpleasant and offensive even to me. I can imagine that some Christian groups might feel that allowing someone on team who might potentially be this way would undermine the entire vibe of the organisation.

 

Some unpleasant people can be unpleasant to others. That's a good reason for not wanting to work with them. There's plenty of people I'd rather not work with but I wouldn't suggest making a law that allows me to discriminate against them.

 

When I'm working with worship bands as a live sound engineer, I know that I make quite a lot of creative decisions, both in production of content such as videos and stuff and also with decisions as to playing style, the length and vibe of their set etc. If I was not a Christian with a good understanding of which direction God wanted us to take a certain meeting or event, then I would be unable to fulfil this role effectively.

The only way that works is if your idea of the direction God wants you to take is the same as everyone else's. Sounds much like the internal dynamics of any creative team to me. If people aren't all "singing from the same hymn sheet", to use a metaphor, then the team doesn't gel and breaks up. Again, sounds like any creative team.

 

If you don't have a heart for effective, sincere, non manipulative evangelism, then making creative decisions on a theatre tour like this would be impossible. If you don't believe in JC as their Lord and Saviour and believe that this is a life changing, exciting, amazing, life wrecking experience that gives life an extra dimension, then you're not particularly well placed to be making creative decisions on a tour which is trying to show people that this is the case. This, of all the arguments I've put forth is the only one with a legal footing.

 

Good try, but at the end of the day are you really saying that if you don't take Jesus as your Lord you can't dress or follow-spot someone? To take that further, as an LD I sometimes find myself understanding what the director wants and giving him/her the relevant lighting even though that's not necessarily the way I'd interpret the scene myself. A director might say "I want this scene dark and moody" when I feel it would contrast better with the following scene if it had more colour to it (for instance). Just becuase I don't agree with him doesn't mean I can't give him what he wants. All the director has to do is explain what mood he wants to ceate and a decent LD will be able to create it.

 

And then we get onto certain lifestyle choices of touring crew. So far this year, I've seen a very significant number of 'very awake' touring engineers come through my venue. I've also seen a number of borderline alcoholics, and to cap it all off, at one gig the 50 year old backline tech appeared to have picked up a very nervous and slightly scared looking (hopefully) 16 year old girl and be leading her back to the tour bus. This behaviour, while I wouldn't do it myself, is mostly not illegal, and is just the way some factions of the RnR touring world work. BUT I'm sure that you'll agree it has no place in a tour like this.

 

Indeed I do agree. Nor does it have any place on ANY tour IMHO.

 

Also, from an EU/domestic law perspective, it is wrong to immediately equate discrimination on grounds of faith with discrimination with race, sexuality, gender, as they are dealt with by different legislation, and I'm sure that the religion regs will be interpreted in a far less harsh way by the courts, as it is not dealing with stuff that you have no choice over.

 

Er... so you're saying that as you have a choice to be a christian or not then it's OK to discriminate against you. OK, then it's OK to discriminate against fat people too as there's a choice not to overeat? Sorry, but I can't see that argument somehow.

 

Finally, I want to encourage people to remember that perhaps a measure of sensitivity would be in order when discussing people's faith

 

I agree and I hope you won't consider any of my comments as insensitive. They are meant purely as discussion. You give your opinion, I give mine and we both respect each other's right to differ.

 

"Peace out," (whatever that means!)

 

Eric

[pscandrett]

Probably OT, but...

I operate the song words software - handy, because that's how I started getting involved and am experienced, but also because it gives me something to do AND frees up my colleagues to worship themselves.

... am I the only one who wonders about the meaning of this part of this post?

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

During periods of musical worship it's usual to have the words available for people to sing along to/join in with. Used to be hymn books, then OHPs, and now it's computerised song words from a projector. (We use some software called EasyWorship but there are other packages out there.) The role of the 'song words' guy is not only to put the right words on screen at any given time but also to pre-empt what people are supposed to be singing - there's no point putting the chorus up when everyone's already sung the first line. You are in fact leading the worship along with the head musician (worship leader). Think a church musical autocue and you're not far off it, except it's often less scripted :-)

 

I've done the song words at events for years - when I was in IT but helping out with the video guys at bigger gigs I did the song words at these events (eg Planet Life). This was powerpoint for a long time and consequently I've had lots of practice at it - following/guessing/going with the flow of the bands and leader, for example. (Thread convergence: I find my GCSE Music/Grade 5 piano background very helpful for following this sort of thing for both song words and when lighting music - being able to predict and follow chord progressions, musical structure etc helps greatly when trying to work out when either anticipating a verse or chorus for the words or a mood change in terms of lighting.)

 

Anyway, dragging it back to my original post; as a now non-Christian who is asked to be present for team meetings, I'm not keen on singing and joining in on the worship time - even though I enjoy singing, I feel very very hypocritical. It therefore gives me something to do (ie 'do the song words') rather than sit, not participating, at the back of the room during the musical worship bits. It has the added bonus in that the rest of my team (technicians) are able to be freed up to participate in the meeting themselves rather than being tied up with running technical things such as the projection.

 

I hope this helps.

[Ike]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Discrimination on the grounds of faith (or lack of faith) is, legally speaking a completely different kettle of fish from discriminating against people for stuff they have no choice about.

But can you really chose your faith? I've been brought up in a Christian family, regularly attended church as a child, paid attention in religious education and Sunday school but at the end of the day I simply don't believe in god. In my opinion I didn't chose to be atheist any more than I chose to be bisexual.

 

I don't mean this to sound as offensive as it's probably going to but telling me I can chose to believe in god is like telling me I can chose to believe in the tooth fairy or farther Christmas. Without some serious mind altering drugs or ECT it just isn't going to happen.

 

While legally speaking they may be totally different I can't see one good reason why and I certainly don't see the difference as being an excuse to condone religious discrimination.

 

I do realise you're trying to help see it from the other persons perspective and I really don't mean this to sound like I'm having a go at you or your religion but the idea that you can simply chose a religion seems a little strange to me.

[Rob_Beech]

I can understand this. Surely you can't choose to truly believe what you believe, you just do, it just happens. Either that or you don't believe, and that has equal choice, or lack of. You don't pick a religion out of a hat, or chose one from a list, "eerrrrr... ooo Christianity that one looks ok, yeah. I believe in God now I've made that choice. " It simply doesn't work like that as Ike rightly says.

[Bobbsy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Discrimination on the grounds of faith (or lack of faith) is, legally speaking a completely different kettle of fish from discriminating against people for stuff they have no choice about. While I think that the spirit of your post is right, I don't think the analogy you draw is fair.

 

Not so different as all that. As it happened, on the night this blew up, the BBC world service radio had a programme about employment discrimination which included an interview with a top UK labour lawyer. On the topic of "faith" he used the example of a catholic school. The school would be allowed to insist on catholic teachers because they are expected to instruct their students in a specific "catholic way". However, they would be breaking the law if they tried to insist on a catholic caretaker because faith or the lack of it has nothing to do with that job.

 

I hate to compare sound, lighting and followspot operators to caretakers but in this case the analogy holds. Religion has nothing to do with their ability to do these jobs and therefore cannot legally be used as a reason to discriminate.

 

Bob

[Matt Riley]

<snipped to save people having to read my comments for the thousandth time>

 

"Peace out," (whatever that means!)

 

Eric

 

In response:

 

1. Some unpleasant people... I don't want to accuse you of not reading my post carefully, but you'll see that I'm not affirming this reason as acceptable, I'm just trying to offer some thought as to the background reasons why an organisation might choose to try and invoke an exemption on the grounds of faith.

 

2. I'm not sure whether your second comment validly counters the point about creative direction in worship scenarios.

 

3. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree whether creative types should be on the same faith page as the director to most effectively design a show. I would equate it to sound engineering from a seperate room (anyone been there!). In terms of non creative roles I've already said in my opinion that it is fine that they think whatever they think about God and I don't think an exception should be claimed

 

4. 'Nor does it have a place on any tour'. I work at a venue which is basically on the 1000 pax rnr touring circuit. While in an ideal world this wouldn't happen, it has a massive place in the lifestyles of a significant number of touring crew on this circuit, and it's not going away any time soon. I am saying that I can imagine why an organisation who preaches very drastically different views on sex, drugs and rock and roll to the stereotypical touring crew might feel that their message is compromised by having people who are a vital and valued part of the production team who live in such a different way. I'm not saying it is the right circumstances to invoke an exception

 

5. There was some debate a few years ago (before the regs) because noone could work out whether judaism was a faith or a race and there was a fair bit of talk about this issue then. All I'm saying is that when the HL(?) looked at it at the time, then they saw it very fit to distinguish between faith and ethnicity in that specific case.

 

6. Without wanting to come across as feeling unduly victimised, my gut feeling is that probably a significant proportion of British society probably do feel it is appropriate that I be discriminated against on the grounds of my faith. Indeed, if I were working on a tour, and the coke sorry tourbus wasn't an environment I could tolerate being in as a Jesus follower, then IMHO "the man on the clapham omnibus" (just thought I'd give you a bit of Lord Bowen just to prove I'm a real law student!) probably wouldn't be too tolerant if I quit and made a claim for compensation.

 

7. "Peace out": A slang term telling someone good-bye, used with a hand gesture in which you pound your chest with your fist twice, then give the peace sign.

In Napoleon Dynamite, Kip acted cool and told Napoleon: "Peace Out". Basically it's a young person thing... now where's my ASBO gone?

 

M

[Seano]

I am saying that I can imagine why an organisation who preaches very drastically different views on sex, drugs and rock and roll to the stereotypical touring crew might feel that their message is compromised by having people

 

Basing your expectations of individuals on crude stereotypes is a pretty good definition of what prejudice actually is. I too can imagine how an organisation might feel this way out of prejudice and intolerance, in short because they are bigots. Its a possible explanation for a 'Christians only' recruitment policy certainly, but hardly justifies it.

[Jerome]

WHAT HAS RELIGION GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING?!! If you can do the job, you can do the job. what else need be said? There should be no difference between any ethnic origin in relation to the technical world. What has it seriously got to do with the theatre regardless of whether opinions state that one is better than the other... who cares?! I am sending a public message out to say that this entire topic is irrelivant and a chance for people to rant and disagree about a subject that thrives on individual opinion. Anyone willing to argue can PM me but I wont be bothered! The point is no-one should be subject to discrimination hence the equal opportunities act and its those who hold the opinion against that want to take a good long look in the mirror before judging others. If you are part of any religion you should recieve no benifits or losses due to this and those who give them should be shot because it causes a hell of a lot of unwanted problems i.e. wars! Its a shame people aren't educated enough to know any better. This coming from the next generation that hopefully will know a lot better than to pre-judge like some of those before us! Racism is not natural its taught and only those who have been taught can pass it on like a nasty virus. Being white I can't say I have had my fair share of racist comments but for those who have I apologise for my fellow man. Almost... nay, as sickening as the Nazis!

[Matt Riley]

I am saying that I can imagine why an organisation who preaches very drastically different views on sex, drugs and rock and roll to the stereotypical touring crew might feel that their message is compromised by having people

 

Basing your expectations of individuals on crude stereotypes is a pretty good definition of what prejudice actually is. I too can imagine how an organisation might feel this way out of prejudice and intolerance, in short because they are bigots. Its a possible explanation for a 'Christians only' recruitment policy certainly, but hardly justifies it.

 

I'm just going to quote that section of my post in full, as I would contest that your quote did justice to what I actually said:

 

'Nor does it have a place on any tour'. I work at a venue which is basically on the 1000 pax rnr touring circuit. While in an ideal world this wouldn't happen, it has a massive place in the lifestyles of a significant number of touring crew on this circuit, and it's not going away any time soon. I am saying that I can imagine why an organisation who preaches very drastically different views on sex, drugs and rock and roll to the stereotypical touring crew might feel that their message is compromised by having people who are a vital and valued part of the production team who live in such a different way. I'm not saying it is the right circumstances to invoke an exception

 

Indeed, your post uses highly negative, emotive language designed to provoke an emotional 'knee jerk' reaction in answer to what was fundamentally a question of law in the first place, not a moral one. I know that written posts are easy to get the wrong idea about, so I'm sure that this isn't the case but it also perhaps has the undertone that you consider me to be a 'prejudiced', 'intolerant', 'bigot'. This is an accusation which I would hotly contest.

 

In relation to your first assertion, perhaps you spend much of your time working in a receiving venue on my level of the touring circuit, but TBH, you're far more skilled and experienced than me, so aren't you more likely to be basing your assertions on the kind of crew you get at the muse wembley gig, or the commonwealth games rigging sesh than the sort of bargain basement gigs we put on. I'm sure you're aware that in doing that you're probably working with the top 5-10% of the industry.

 

I'd also like to ask you the question whether

a) you think there is a significant proportion of touring boys on the 1000 pax circuit who do live the 'rock n roll' lifestyle tho?

b) related to that, do you think that it would undermine their message if a Christian organisation did employ someone like that?

 

M

[gareth]

Rant, rant, rant, rant ...

Errr .. have you quite finished? And more to the point, have you actually read the last few pages of posts (and I mean read them properly) before posting your badly-thought-out, barely-relevant ranting?

 

What has religion got to do with anything? Nothing - that's the point of this whole thread. And we're not talking about ethnic origin, so I have no idea why you brought that up. If you think the topic is so irrelevant, ignore it. Your post added absolutely nothing to what was, up until now, a civilised, considered and relevant discussion.

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

Stupid boy.

[/Captain Mainwaring]

[Jivemaster]

The point of law seems to be that the citation of genuine grounds for religous selection is pretty thin.

 

However, as this was clearly advertised as unpaid, why would you want to work on the tour if you didn't support its aims or at least accept them.