Alexb_01 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hi, Firstly an apology for any lighting-related technical ignorance I may display, I primarily do sound engineering with a bit of lighting knowledge. A bit of an introduction to this, in my school we usually run a rig with only conventional lighting by a Strand 300 Series. I was actually opposed to this 'experiment' but it has been decided that for the forthcoming show of the Wizard of Oz we will try renting 12 moving lights. Please don't comment on the necessity of the moving lights as that's a separate matter. What I am asking for comment on is the desk that we are hiring in. It has been decided (by the company contracted to the school for technical support through who the equipment is being rented) that we will rent a frog series desk. I'm not entirely sure which of the desks in particular but it has to be at least the fat frog (to support the moving fixtures). I just had a quick glance through a bit of the manual and it seemed that the fat frog desk seemed more cumbersome to use and less intuitive and flexible than the Strand 300 Series desk I'm use to. Like for example I'm a bit apprehensive about the way that the external monitor isn't used as a necessary part of the programming like on the Strand, I can't imagine programming cues/effects using a tiny LCD display (like on the frog). Am I right to have these thoughts/worries? I'd welcome any opinions on the frog series desks and how they may compare to the Strand 300 Series desk. Thanks, Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy jim Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The fat frog, if I'm not mistaken, can't handle 12 movers... The 300 is about 18million times better IMHO. The Fat Frog is completely different to the Strand, everything cue-wise is done on faders and the like- it's a bit strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 If your comfortable using a 300 with movers and it has enough channels and attributes to handle the rig I'd be asking the company spec'ing it whats so special about the frog (apart from being able to play frogger ) Having used both a frog and a 300 I'd much rather a 300 for straight theatre,busking a show the frog would win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexb_01 Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hmm, I've got a feeling it's a bit late to say no to the desk, I'm at school is full of bureaucracy and no one speaks to each other - it was all decided by those higher up, I was only told on Friday and now it's being set up on Tuesday! We've never used moving lights before so have no particular experience on the 300 series with moving lights, that said I have read up and experimented in the offline editor before. On the basis that it's coming and I don't think I can really turn around and say actually I'd rather stick to the 300 series I'm a bit worried.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ee61re Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 On the basis that it's coming and I don't think I can really turn around and say actually I'd rather stick to the 300 series I'm a bit worried.... Am I correct in thinking that the 300 is already onsite? If so, why not just use it - just because someone who thinks they know better is hiring a Frog, doesn't mean you have to use it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhuson Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The fat frog, if I'm not mistaken, can't handle 12 movers... You're mistaken. To the OP, if your familiar with the 300 then I don't see any reason why you can't still use it even though another desk is being hired in (aside from the waste of money). If you are the person expected to plot the show then it makes sense to have a tool you're at least partly familiar with rather than one you've never used before. With regard to the screen thing, the Frog range also have an external screen but I think you need to get away from needing a screen to program, and think about being able to look at the stage a decide what needs to be done to achieve the look required, that's far more important than the actual mechanics of how a scene is plotted. EDIT: Largely beaten to it again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexb_01 Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 I guess but there's more to it than that. I think it took a lot of convincing for the school to pay for the rental and they are eager to see whether it will pay off. On top of that I'm helping install it all with the contractor on Tuesday and they are giving a 'crash course' on using the frog and I'm not in a position to say no then. Anyway we are now venturing into the silly bureaucratic systems at play.... I think I will go have a chat to the head of music (who was one of the key people liaising with the contractor) before the contractor turns up on Tuesday and express my fears. Are there /any/ positives to using the frog!? What's the ability to 'play frogger' you mentioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy jim Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The fat frog, if I'm not mistaken, can't handle 12 movers... You're mistaken. I thought it only had 10 fixture buttons? So short of assigning the same address to more than one fixture...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ83 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 If the contractors are giving you a crash course then they will probably cover all the assigning fixtures and manual patching. This would have been one if the toughest things to do if you have never used Frog desks before. There have also been several fairly recent posts on the BR covering how to do this should you have any problems. It is probably worth having a play with the phantom Frog that you can download from HERE.If not included in the hire, try and also have a computer monitor and keyboard available as this will make programming a little easier. The hardest thing when using fixtures is ensuring that the correct attributes are tagged before you press program but this just takes a little practise to get use to. (Pressing F1 and F3 together brings up the Frogger game but you will need a monitor plugged in. This also works on the phantom Frog) Edit to add: The Fat Frog definitely has 12 fixture buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 What's the ability to 'play frogger' you mentionedpress the f1 and f3 buttonsI thought it only had 10 fixture buttons?last time I spent trying to crash use a frog it most definitely had 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Are there /any/ positives to using the frog!? It's easy to pick up, but if you're used to working with Strand desks it's definitely different. Having been 'brought up' on Strand desks I just don't like the Frog series. I find the lack of a command-line irritating, and without a keyboard certain things are really annoying (for example skipping a large block of cues mid-show for whatever reason). What's the ability to 'play frogger' you mentioned? If you have an external monitor hooked up, press F1 + F3 and enjoy :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokm Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 On top of that I'm helping install it all with the contractor on Tuesday and they are giving a 'crash course' on using the frog and I'm not in a position to say no then.The thing is, yes you are. As others have said, if your the guy programming the show & have a fair bit of experience doing so on your 300, then just say to the contractor, 'sorry mate, thanks for offering to bring a desk down, I appreciate it, but I want to use the desk I know rather than something I've never touched before'. If he has any sense about him, he'll understand where your coming from and be fine with it. If not :), its cheeky, but swap it out when he's gone. You have my sympathies! (for having to work in such a hindering environment, even if its all well intentioned!) T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexb_01 Posted November 22, 2008 Author Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks for all your advice so far. Given I have no real practical experience using intellegent lighting with the 300 series do you think it'd take long to learn how to if I was to stick with the 300 series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The 300-series will handle moving lights without a problem (check that it has sufficient attributes loaded in software to be able to deal with 12 moving lights of the type that you're renting - it almost certainly will, unless they're something particularly channel-hungry). It's not the ideal desk for moving light programming (moving light functionality was always an afterthought on the GeniusPro software) - but that said, it's several orders of magnitude better than a Fat Frog. As long as you have a basic grounding in 300-series programming (and seeing as it's your school's "house" desk I'm guessing you do), you should have no trouble expanding your knowledge to encompass enough moving light programming to make the lights do what you want them to do. Sometimes it can be a bit long-winded, but when you consider that GeniusPro is a fifteen-year-old product that, in its initial form, was never actually intended to do half the things that it can now do, then you can kind of forgive that to an extent. If the school insist on renting you a Fat Frog, for the sake of your sanity leave it in its flightcase and use the Strand instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 First thing, as I asked earlier are there enough channels and attributes on your 300 to be able to run your rig? Second do you have a suitable profile for the movers,although making one is simple enough.Third do you realy want to miss out on frogger :) . As for how long well how many miles in a strawberry? It took me a good couple of days,and a fair bit of baccy doing not much else but getting my head around things and ironing out a few querks (like why aint the track ball working ) before I was confident enough to use movers on the 300 . My advice would be to stick with the frog for the show,but make sure you get decent support from the supplier,then once the rigs up and the show lit,get the 300 pluged in and get learning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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