Digico SD8 Users

[richardtank]

I don't know if it was a mixing desk problem but when I saw... actually can't remember who it was, on the other stage the FOH mix died. But I have no clue what caused that- Could still hear the monitors though.

[Simon Lewis]

I heard recently of SD7's having catastrophic failures at Glastonbury and a large church in Sydney.

 

So, those who were working at Glastonbury seem unaware of any SD7 problems. Was the Sydney church example Hillsong? Is the story verifyable, or hearsay?

 

Sorry to bang on about this, but I have seen a number of statements like this on various forums, and I think that they are unhelpful, unless backed up with specific details, version release, operating conditions etc. I am not suggesting that the SD7 or any other digital desk is error free. However, to imply that a manufacturer's whole product range is "inherently unstable and crashing a lot" seems at best disingenuous, and at worse libellious.

 

I'm glad that you are happy with the D show. I'd guess that someone somewhere has had one crash at an inopportune moment. That doesn't make it a desk "I would never even consider buying"

 

Simon

[Gareth Owen]

I'd guess that someone somewhere has had one crash at an inopportune moment. That doesn't make it a desk "I would never even consider buying"

I've been lucky enough to use some of the more common digital consoles on a number of west end musicals and theatrical tours, including the DigiCo D5T, the Yamaha PM1D, and the Digidesign Venue. All have crashed at some point or another despite various dual rendandancy systems and expensive backup options. With each and every console a show stop was required while the fault was rectified - which in most cases simply involved rebooting the desk. This seems to be an inevitable part of digital mixing technology which could arguably be considered a step backwards rather than a step forwards?

 

Personally, I've never had a show using a Cadac, Heritage or Amek require a show stop as a result of console failure despite the usual array of thrown drinks, dodgy power and flooded theatres...

[Rob_Beech]

Ah well I've never had a digital board crash on me mid show, however I've had analogue board failures. 2 of them Heritageseses. One a venice, and a few small cheap things (never a behringer though). Can you see where this is going. ......

[jim b]

Con's

 

-I have crashed it 3 times in 1 week of having it. 1 time it just restarted with uncontrollable audio passing and the other 2 times I got a system error (corruption in the software) with ultimately the system having to be restarted. This is probably the biggest con, your on a show and it crashes, your screwed...

 

Hi all,

 

It seems to me that the Digico legacy is one of being inherently unstable and crashing a lot. I heard recently of SD7's having catastrophic failures at Glastonbury and a large church in Sydney.

Why would you even consider buying a new board that crashes straight out of the box?

Give me a D-Show any day. Never had one crash on me yet. Also lots of fun to use and sounds amazing.

 

Cheers and Merry Christmas to all! :)

 

As Simon points out the issue of a desk crashing being reported second or third hand is pretty weak-it's easy to blame the desk for crashing when what's happened is there's human error and a previous version of the show needs recalling, the UPS powering it has died, or maybe the desk has indeed crashed. Without being close enough to see the incident and trouble shooting process at first hand (or have a reliable fault report) it's ridiculous to condemn a whole company's product range.

 

Saying that, the SD8 has a young piece of software and no doubt as soon as possible upgrades will appear to rectify problems some of which will have slipped through the test procedures. I would be hesitant to take any brand's new piece of equipment immediately but someone has to or else we'd never do anything differently.

 

Using the D-Show as a counter argument seems odd as the two of these systems I've used (both from reputable suppliers with well maintained inventories) have had issues-the first a spurious noise every minute or so which went away after a reboot (noticed while the audience weren't in) and the second a complete loss of the snake and the redundant back up not taking over properly, resulting in some nasty audible artefacts-this resulted in doors having to be held while cards were swapped and re-seated and a support band being given roughly three minutes of soundcheck. I'd find this more concerning as this console is supposed to be in a mature phase of its life. This is quite apart from my views on its interface...

 

Saying that, I think it's worth using this as an example of how statistics can be twisted to fit an argument:

I can say with absolute truth that:

100% of the D-Show desks I've used have had audible problems.

Every time I've used a D-Show Desk I've had a problem.

Whilst it is also fair to say that:

I've only used a D-Show twice.

My two uses of a D-Show are a fraction of a percent of the total number of (presumably largely successful) uses of these desks.

 

I've not heard of the SD7 having catastrophic failures and did specifically ask the question of an engineer who had the board out all summer.

 

Personally I think the demand for ever more powerful desks all the time without expecting to wait for development and testing to be completed puts manufacturers in a difficult position. Would Digico/Digidesign/Midas et al prefer to be able to spend an extra 6 months testing their desks before release? Of course they would. Would they be able to survive and have investment and credit lines extended to them while sales go to rival companies? No they wouldn't.

 

Personally speaking the SD8 looks to be a very interesting desk if it matures to become a stable platform and proves reliable. With the numbers shipped it seems that it will bring Digico to a lot more users and also gives a lot of power for the price.

 

Sorry for the slightly random bimble through my thoughts but it does annoy me that rumour and second hand news can give unjustifiable reputations to pieces of equipment.

 

Have a good Christmas!

 

Jim

[Gareth Owen]

Ah well I've never had a digital board crash on me mid show, however I've had analogue board failures. 2 of them Heritageseses. One a venice, and a few small cheap things (never a behringer though). Can you see where this is going. ......

Thats a good point Rob - I've never had a Spirit Folio crash on me either... Maybe cheap is better... :** laughs out loud **:

[Rob_Beech]

I was actually referring to the fact that NO desk is 100% reliable, be it digital or analogue, 4 channels or 48 channels, £24 or £24000.

[Gareth Owen]

Thinking back, I was fibbing when I said I've never had a Heritage crash - I did have one fall over once - had to push the little button between the status LEDs in with the end of a Sharpie... Didn't affect the audio flow out front though so I don't think that really counts...

[mac.calder]

I have seen D1's crash - quite a few times when we were thrashing it during cast changes ... but the thing that really impresses me about the D1, is 9/10 the crash only happens on the control surface. So a quick reboot of the control surface is all that is required - and sound keeps coming out of the system. A crash on an analogue board is often either show stopping or channel removing. Sure, in the 1/10 instance, the DSP system needs to be reset, which does cut audio and does stop the show momentarily and it is a pain, but "Have equiptment, will fail"...

[Bobbsy]

As so often happens, I'm with Rob on this one...I've used digital offerings from Digico (D1, D5), Yamaha (DM1000, 2000, PM5D, M7CL, LS9) and Soundcraft (Vi6) and so far not had any failures during a show. (Though I HAVE had freezes when doing silly things while programming--and the Vi6 was very unstable when I had my training at Soundcraft--but it was early days and the current software seems fine).

 

On the other hand, I've had show-affecting failures several times with Midas board (almost always Heritage--once just an 8 channel module...so "patch-around-able" but the other time the Master section which was VERY not fun).

 

As for Digidesign stuff, I've never used it in anger but have my own major prejudice against them, based on past experiences with the company rather than the hardware/software. Suffice to say, they were rather difficult to deal with when I was doing system design and installation.

 

The thing is, for ANY manufacturer or piece of gear you'll find people with good tales and bad to tell. Occasionally there are genuine problems that affect a large number of people and those are worth letting people know about. However, a one-off "I used one once and it crashed" shouldn't really be extended to "they have major problems--buy something else". Even worse, of course, is the "my neighbour's mate's cousin knows somebody at a church in Australia that had a problem".....

 

Bob

[Rob_Beech]

The problem is. There are lots more Midas etc failures that people keep quiet about. They don't want us to know that they spent in excess of £30,000 on a desk and it is not as reliable as they'd hoped. They don't tell us. Because they have that sort of equipment, they just contact their supplier and get it fixed. However, someone with a Behringer/Mackie/Phonic/Alto/insert other budget name here desk that fails will ask us here for help. It then APPEARS that these desks fail more often. In the real world they probably do, but I believe that more than often enough, people are led into a false sense of security with larger desks of an analogue nature thinking that they don't go wrong unless you spill beer in them. It's certainly not true and whilst I can't remember the last time I used a Behringer desk I've probably used them on 100 times the shows I have used Midas boards on and I've had 3 Midas failures and 0 Behringer failures. Would I sooner use a cheap budget desk? No, personally I'd sooner be placed inside a giant shoe filled with gear oil before being sent off on the open sea towards France whereby on arrival I'm thrown into a dark room full of angry wasps with Cliff Richard playing in the background on an array of Nexo PS15's. Would I have sooner used a budget desk to get the show going on the 3 occasions that a Midas board has failed on me and stopped the show? Why yes, yes I would.

[Bobbsy]

However, someone with a Behringer/Mackie/Phonic/Alto/insert other budget name here desk that fails will ask us here for help. It then APPEARS that these desks fail more often.

 

Also throw into the equation that there are probably 10,000 Behringer/Mackie/Phonic/Alto/insert other budget name here desks out there for every big Midas--and these 10,000 cheap desks are far more likely to be thrown in the back of a van without a case and used in a dirty, smoky pub than the big Midas.

 

One failure per thousand Behringers will be lots of failures; one failure per thousand Midas boards will be negligible.

 

Still, except when they're breaking down, I love mixing on a big Midas. Well, until I miss the automation on my little Yamaha digital.

 

Bob

[Chappie]

Give me a D-Show any day. Never had one crash on me yet.

You are obviously not trying hard enough! Fear not, one day you'll get there.

[Bobbsy]

Probably too late for the original poster on this one, but this month's edition of Audio Media magazine has a very positive review of the SD8. I'll refrain from saying that Audio Media rarely gives bad reviews....but there's a good description of the work flow etc. from somebody who's actually had the desk to use.

 

No link because you have to be a registered subscriber to access the online version...but this is free to anyone in the industry.

 

My last comment is that, since this thread was current, if I was looking at digital mixers in this price bracket I'd certainly also be considering the A&H iLive T series. There are now some very attractive choices in the "medium price" digital mixer category.

 

Bob

[Chappie]

Audio Media article is here