School Show Tech - Problem

[Ynot]

But it is better than having no comms at all. I'd rather get cues over a radio than over a PC. It also works better than a PC can.

But renting a couple of decent sets of cans isn't going to break the bank.

I'd put a good comms system well ahead of a single mover, for example (and cheaper) and possibly even above radio mics...

 

Like I say good communication is essential or the whole show could easily go to pot.

 

Anyway, that is a bit OT.

[adamcoppard]

Well, whoever said basic kit, you'd be right. Stupidly basic. Three mic's with enough cable for one full run. 6 Fressnells, 2 Par 56's, 2 AlphaPacks (one semi-broken).

 

This is why we hire all the time, what we have we can't use for the kind of, even 'simple' ideas we come up with. I could (and it needs) the hire budget spent on it to get it back into condition (gel holders are all broken, we have two decent gels, the rest have either got burnt badly in installation, or someone just check them in the box and they got ripped.

 

This is where I'm coming from with mic's. We need four characters miced. As soon as you do that, you need a lot of people miced, or non at all, otherwise it sounds horrible!

 

Will take the idea's with me tomorrow. Some interesting ones are coming out, and, we've used radios as comms before, and, it isn't at all important to us (SM, Prompt, Director and Tech all sit at the same desk during the show).

[gareth]

Well, whoever said basic kit, you'd be right. Stupidly basic. Three mic's with enough cable for one full run. 6 Fressnells, 2 Par 56's, 2 AlphaPacks (one semi-broken).

The stupid thing is that if, over the last two or three years, you'd spent £4000 a year on sorting out the school's basic lighting/sound infrastructure and equipment stock instead of ploughing it all into a week's hire, you'd be in a far better position today than you actually are ... to the extent that you'd probably be more than able to provide adequate, if basic, lighting and sound for the forthcoming production without having to spend a single penny on hiring.

 

But it's more fun to hire toys, right?

(Not directed at you personally, Adam - more at schoolkids in general who think that hiring radio mics and moving lights should take precedence over spending a couple of grand on sorting out the basics.)

[karl]

Well, whoever said basic kit, you'd be right. Stupidly basic. Three mic's with enough cable for one full run. 6 Fressnells, 2 Par 56's, 2 AlphaPacks (one semi-broken).

OK, now that's a challenge!!!

 

I have lit shows with less but I'm guessing this is a much bigger show in a much bigger venue.

 

Really all that you can do (as already suggested by others) is list your priorities and use the available budget to deal with the most pressing ones. If the audience can see and hear the performers then that's a start everything else is a bonus.

 

Do you have the ability to shop-around for hire kit or do you have to go to specified suppliers? If you have the freedom to do so make sure you get the best price. Can you negotiate a good deal in return for advertising in programs?

 

Can you borrow any stuff from other schools, colleges, etc. in the area?

 

Basically try every (legal and safe) method you can to maximise what you can achieve with the money available.

 

But it's more fun to hire toys, right?

(Not directed at you personally, Adam - more at schoolkids in general who think that hiring radio mics and moving lights should take precedence over spending a couple of grand on sorting out the basics.)

Not just schoolkids either unfortunately - but that's another topic :unsure: .

[Ynot]

OK, Adam

 

What do you normally hire in for your £2500 to £4000?

Because even looking at Stage LX (not the cheapest for hire by far) you could put together a fairly decent LX rig for under £500.

 

10 x Selecon fresnels @ £9.35 each for stage cover - £93.50

10 x Selecon Profiles @ £8.80 each for FoH - £88.80

10 x Par 64 @ £7.50 each - £75.00

Jester 24/48 @ £85.00

4 Digidim 6-packs @ £27.50 each - £110.00

Allow £40 or so for cable and that's your £500.

Now, if you can't do something half decent with that little lot (plus your existing inventory) then I'm sorry, but someone else should be brought in to run the LX for the school shows.

 

And being perfectly blunt, EVERY school show I was involved in from when I was a teenager right through to my late twenties (as I was involved in several schools for years) managed without ANY mics whatsoever, let alone radio mics. The fact that it's the expectation these days that 'we can't do without' is the ONLY reason why many schools waste a lot of effort and cash not trying to manage.

The performers need to be TAUGHT to project properly and not to rely on reinforcement. That's why when they move on to other stiff after school they struggle still.

 

Yes, it's nice to have lots of mics to play with BUT it is NOT essential if you just can't afford it.

In your situation I'd say that making sure your cast can be SEEN is going to be a little more important than mics (apologies to the noise guys here, but you know what I mean). THEY. the cast, can affect whether they are heard or not - they can't do anything about the light...

 

 

E2A - Looking at those SLX prices again, it isn't clear whether those ARE weekly hire rates, so they MAY be dailies. BUT the key is to play on the contacts, shop around, and look for the discounts that almost always are there.

[Russ83]

Looking back at the original post the £500 was to cover the full tech requirements so spending the entire amount on lighting and not having anything to play CDs through could be a problem. There is nothing wrong with live sound effects, I've spent many hours making noise in the wings or under the stage however they may need some speakers/amps for other reasons.

 

I am finding it very difficult to grasp that a school can find £2,500 each year to spend on hire for a single show!! To then add that the school only owns 8 generics and a couple of dimmers that don't fully work just....well I really am lost for words.

Are there not any drama studios in school that you can de-rig for the week?

If this is the case I think your schools drama/music departments really need to have a sit down, do some basic maths and re-assess the situation.

[adamcoppard]

No drama studios, this is for the multipurpose sports hall. As for the hire / repair debarkle, I have taken the back-seat and let our old technician do the quoting (our new IT technician isn't involved), which he did, at the amount specified. I would rather have had it repaired!

 

@Ynot, your £500 hire doesn't include any rigging as such, which means we would be pretty stuck, unless I missed something!

 

As for our normal hire (it's probably overkill)

Yamaha LS9-32

16 Sehnheiser Beltpacks (dunno model)

6k Neos Seapkers

Amps

CD Player

Cabling

Generic's (8 Par 64's, 4 Source 4's)

Dimmers

T-Bar's

Comms.

 

Last year that little lot came in at over £3,000. That's why this year I completely ripped it out, and started again, and now, after working on it, getting told the budget, and art direction has changed!

 

As for the money part, I've explained above that it wasn't me who's been in charge of it the last couple of years, and so, I'm learning as I take the reins a bit.

 

Mentioned before, I think the Mic's is laziness, they expect them to be there, so they don't bother learning how to project, so just fall back on the security that we provided!

 

As an aside, I hope that if we only spend £500 I can get the rest of the hire budget to go and fix up what we've got, update it all a little bit (the lanterns are covered in god knows what, the strobe died as soon as we plugged it in), but, that won't happen, as they (SMT) prefer to see flashy lights which move, or lots of towers of radio mic's and a desk with flashy bars as a better spend of money. As we only use this kit once or twice a year, they think it makes more sense to hire, and let what we have fall into a state of disrepair.

[Ynot]

@Ynot, your £500 hire doesn't include any rigging as such, which means we would be pretty stuck, unless I missed something!

 

Well, all we have to go on is this bit from your other topic...

Also, another argument to be bought up into this: it's going to be a big set construction, should I look into putting everything on truss, or stick with T-bars (we can provide the bars, but not the truss) which would surely add a fair bit into the hire.

(My bold).

Which suggests you have something to hang some of the lights on.

But if not, lose a couple of each type of lantern and hire some extra stands.

 

It's all about compromise, and making do with what you DO have and what you CAN get for the budget - something that I really don't think you've actually understood yet - you're FAR too busy moaning about what you can't have!

Again, sorry if that sounds blunt but that's precisely what many of us deal with every show!

 

Look, whilst my prime involvement is am-dram (though I have and do occasionally teatre) my venue is a VERY busy one, hosting anything from one night bands with no budget to the 2-week panto with around £20K to play with. Although we have a pretty good rig to start with there are always things that the tech guys would like to do - and it's down to them to organise whether the hirer - who's footing the bill - can afford the extras. Those extras include our radio mics, any moving kit hired in, etc etc. If they can't, then they make do with what we have as standard rig, even though it can mean a little extra work for them.

 

That's just the way it is.

[smalljoshua]

Lets see.

 

2x 6way PAR Bar £50ea

 

3x Acclaim Profile £8.80ea

 

1x 1.5m Scaff bar for above £1.65

 

3x Stands for Above £6.60ea

 

2x DIG6 Dimmers £27.50ea

 

Assuming that you will have all of the dimmers near one of the side stands

 

1x 5m Soca for nearest par bar £4.70

 

1x 20m Soca for other par bar £13.75

 

Place a Par bar either side of the stage with the profiles at the back of the room powered from an Alpha Pack

 

2x 5m DMX £1.40ea

 

1x 20m DMX £2.20

 

1x 1m DMX £1.10

 

1x Jester 12/24 £38.50

 

Total £265.90

 

That will give a general cover. Again, going by Stage-Elecrics List prices. If you have been spending £2-4000 with the same company each year they should give some sort of discount.

 

Josh

[gareth]

they (SMT) prefer to see flashy lights which move, or lots of towers of radio mic's and a desk with flashy bars as a better spend of money. As we only use this kit once or twice a year, they think it makes more sense to hire, and let what we have fall into a state of disrepair.

Have you taken the time to explain to somebody in authority that this isn't actually true, and that there's a very strong case to be made for investing in infrastructure and equipment rather than wasting money on hires every year? I'm sure you're not the sort of person who would keep quiet and say nothing just because they prefer to spend the money on hiring overly extravagent rigs because it's easier to impress their mates that way, and who clearly doesn't care about leaving a legacy of decent technical equipment to those who will take over from them in years to come ... so why not have a chat to the teachers or other school staff who are in a position to influence the way things happen, and explain the benefits of investing wisely?

[themadhippy]

Hang on you say your a school,so get the physics bods on the comms case,we used to use old telephone hand sets (carbon microphones,high impedance earpieces) and a lab power supply for our comms,if it was too quiet just wap up the volts a bit more.If you want headsets nick borrow them from the language lab,again the physics bods should have a suitable low powered amp that can be adapted for the job.

[Mr_Jules]

Right, my tuppence worth.

 

Welcome to the world of not getting what we want. It's been a really long time since I was able to spec a show on anything approaching what I would ideally like, I've taken on shows with a technical budget of zilch, let alone £500 let alone 4 grand.

 

So you've had some great advice to date offering a number of different options. Mine for what it's worth is this:

 

Sit down with your director and MD in a quiet space with plenty of time, and methodically go through the requirements for the show. Now they know that you don't have a lot to spend, and it's not going to be the same as previous productions. Leave your ego at the door. Don't whinge about your lack of funds or how you could do a much better job with tons of cash. This is going to be one show where you won't be making a huge impression to anyone generally excited by wizz-bang lighting and sound. But it will give you the opportunity to do the best job you can in far from ideal circumstances.

 

Start with what is absolutely essential, and move on from there. Remember, it's possible to light shows in open white and use the 'tungsten curve' to provide contrast. I've seen theatres in Eastern Europe that owned next to no lighting and gel stock at all that did exactly that. It is possible to design with a handful of rubbish lanterns. Make sure they're in as good as condition as you can get them and really think hard about every placement and focus, because it's going to make a lot of difference.

 

By now you should have built up a bit of a relationship with your local hire company. Give them a ring and see if they can offer you any kind of a deal. See if they have anything going for free as a good will gesture - it's amazing what may be lying around that they don't have in their catalogue. do the same with any local theatres in your area. If you're lucky you might hit a quiet week. Offer your services for free for some kit. In other words go on the scrounge and see what turns up.

 

It may not feel this way, but believe me, this is going to do more for you than you think. Much of professional technical design (for us mere mortals at least) is spent figuring our how to make round pegs fit into square holes (or is it the other way round?) Do the best job that you possibly can and show everyone that you have the passion and dedication to follow through when things are getting tough.

[Bobbsy]

You know what concerns me here? Except for a few of the old hands, we've heard absolutely NOTHING about what the show needs.

 

If we're talking a rock-style show with all electric instruments and high stage (or pit) levels, then it would be silly to try and do without vocal amplfication and you should explain you can't do what's needed and bow out gracefully.

 

If it's a straight Shakesperian drama then you don't need the sound system or lights...use the $500 to buy a few generics for the theatre (or, if you can't mix hire and capital budgets, have a darn good post show party!).

 

However, if the real situation is somewhere in the middle (and odds are, that's the case) then all you can do is sit down with the director and discuss what they want to achieve and what you can offer for the money--until you come to an agreed compromise.

 

My point is that the creative requirements of the show should be considered first, not just "what did we hire last time?"....and the creative requirements are set by the director, not a technician.

 

Bob

[dosxuk]

I mean, wait until tech week, and then when they say, ooh we need this mic here, and this here (like they are used too), I can just say, well, I told you so (well, not exactly that, but say if we'd done this, then we could do Y).

 

This is exactly what people meant by throwing your toys out of the pram. As you're the only person here who knows what this production requires, it's up to you to discuss that with the teacher controlling the budget now. If on tech day, people start going "where's this?", you should then be able to explain why it's not there, suggesting ways to work around the absense (e.g. project your voice), not that people could have had the moon on a stick if you'd been able to hire what you wanted. Telling people you're right, and those in charge are wrong, doesn't help to solve the issue and will not gain you any friends or support.

 

I will of course explain that these things cost a lot of money (for a decent quality), and running some nice mics through our old beat up (almost broken) Mackie PA system which as a few H&S problems, isn't going to give you the best results.

 

With £500, and systems in as bad a state of repair as you say, you can not be aiming for the best results. You have to aim for what is suitable for this production, in these circumstances, with this budget. If that means using cheap radio mics because you won't tell the difference between them and the sennheisers through your PA, you've just saved some more money.

 

Incidentally, if your Mackie PA system has a few H&S problems, why do you a) still have access to it, or do the school not know how dangerous it is? and b) not have it repaired with some of your £500, meaning you don't have to hire this time, or in future. You may also find repairing existing kit can come out of capital funds, rather than the "hire" budget set aside for this production.

 

On the other hand, if the system isn't dangerous, just not as good as you've been able to hire, and the H&S problems are an excuse... Mind telling us what they are?

[adamcoppard]

H&S problems:

 

Phantom power won't actually switch on the channels, meaning it's on, giving electric shocks, and other such problems.

Cables with frayed ends.

Cables pulled as tight as possible to do the lengths (our Speakon cables will only just reach, meaning it begins to get elevated).

As with the lanterns, well, there's no safety chains or anything. Just one bolt away from crashing down onto somebodys heads, with the flmisest cross part of the T.

 

Also, as for the T-Bar's and the other hire, our T-Bar's will only hang our generic's (so 12 spaces), of which we can't use all (space / weight problems).