Web site Idea

[peternewman]

But even as "out of box" a lot of those counting/classification issues exist.

 

I would probably concur with Mark a bit, and he's put it into perspective quite nicely, so I'd be inclined to leave it at just the wiki page for now, and see if there is a demand to make that more searchable than you can do in your head by looking over it. There is also a lot more to consider with a desk than just which is the cheapest or fulfills your particular set of requirements, whereas you probably just want the cheapest insurance/the one with the best extras.

[indyld]

While all kinds of projects are possible on the web, it comes down to the demand and peoples willingess to "fund" that a small demand with their time on an ongoing basis. This is where the Wiki works well - the workload is spread and there is always someone ready to add the next product. Unmanageable variables pointed out by Peter leave some DB questions.

 

My vote always goes to using existing functionality to produce quick results in the first instance. As the table can be sorted by column, it's possible to find a particular set of features fairly easily. Well done, guys. An instantly useful resource without resorting to endless faffing about with AJAX ;-)

 

Mark is right about the difference in demand between the insurance market and specialist equipment like lighting desks. Not only is there a huge demand for easy product comparison (often price based), the bigger driver is the amount of commission that insurance companies are willing to pay for their coversions. comparethemarket.com, moneysupermarket and even moneysavingsexpert only exist because the huge financial rewards available to them as aggregators. Hey, they can even afford expensive channel marketing like silly TV ads - still the best way to create brand awareness among the millions of insurance buyers (let's face it - all of us).

 

With equipment (yes, cheap Chinses kit) becoming more affordable, the worldwide market for user-funded purchase of lighting equipment is growing along with demand for reviews, comparisons and information. At On Stage Lighting, I regularly get contacted by lighting bods all over the world asking me about a particular product, do I recommend it etc. So, growing demand for this kind of information.

 

When the lighting manufacturers properly start compensating online publishers, I would consider spending the time providing this kind of information. I can make a guess that the first makers to do this will neither be from Europe or the US. What does anyone else think?

[paulears]

For some areas of our 'world' getting decent reliable reviews of products is easy, but for others so hard. I've been trying to buy a product recently - the spec is available from the manufacturer, and reviews are everywhere, but reliable data to help me make the decision is impossible. One reviewer did a comparison between two popular brands - this I thought was great, until I discover on another forum that the weak areas of one had been removed from the test or the review model would have become unavailable.

 

I've just added to the wiki, just to see if I was bright enough to use Peter's template - and the biggest problem I had was converting the zero 88 speak into an alternative that made sense. Nothing wrong with the Frog spec, but to be accurate, it was (from memory) 12 movers + 48 generics, whereas the control I added just had a numeric limit. So both are accurate, but because of the way the controls work, the answers don't help much. So does the Frog really have 60? Well, yes, but the 12+48 split is critical. In a field where entire control concepts are so different, I'm not sure very much meaningful information can be obtained - simply too many variables, or caveats to simple number recording. Even words are tricky. Is a playback a sub-master? It can be, but doesn't have to be - so typing in 24 cue stacks could be correct, but 24 sub-masters might be missing an important difference.

 

The point about differences between control versions is critical too. The old Strand method of buying features on a standard control put up against a fixed format control is quite important, and now we also have same desk, different software versions to contend with as well. Very confusing unless the variables are pruned, but then the result is useless!

[LX-Dave]

I'm not sure what other people were thinking, but I was thinking more along the lines of the specs which the "out of the box" desk has, as in DMX channels, DMX universes, other protocols supported & submasters etc...

 

I'd agree that's what I was thinking of

[peternewman]

I've just added to the wiki, just to see if I was bright enough to use Peter's template - and the biggest problem I had was converting the zero 88 speak into an alternative that made sense. Nothing wrong with the Frog spec, but to be accurate, it was (from memory) 12 movers + 48 generics, whereas the control I added just had a numeric limit. So both are accurate, but because of the way the controls work, the answers don't help much. So does the Frog really have 60? Well, yes, but the 12+48 split is critical. In a field where entire control concepts are so different, I'm not sure very much meaningful information can be obtained - simply too many variables, or caveats to simple number recording. Even words are tricky. Is a playback a sub-master? It can be, but doesn't have to be - so typing in 24 cue stacks could be correct, but 24 sub-masters might be missing an important difference.

I guess some definitions/explanations of what to put in the various fields would probably help, or perhaps even some more fields to try and clarify things. I would hope with your 600 people would get the idea they can be anything, as I mentioned above, this sort of data can only ever give a quick overview to suggest which ones to look at in more detail. Regarding the playbacks/submasters, I guess sticking "(shared with submasters)" or something in the field is probably the best way to cover it.

 

It does seem someone else has done something similar already here, although it seems to have some data in, it doesn't seem to work unfortunately.

 

Very confusing unless the variables are pruned, but then the result is useless!

So do people generally think more or less fields would help clarify things, do we want to add a MIDI field, a Timecode one etc?

[LX-Dave]

Thanks for all the replies - many very relevant comments.

 

I think the wiki page can be a very useful feature and seems to be a simpler more immediate solution.

However, as it stands it's a little limited, but once more desks are added, and from a wider range of manufacturers (cheap Chinese ones included), it could end up being a very useful / powerful resource

 

It'll be great to see what happens from now on !

[Tomo]

That table is too far geared to Zero88 terminology, which is very confusing for anyone who's not used a Zero88 desk.

 

For example:

What exactly is a "Virtual Playback"?

- The Frog2 manual appears to say that only either 10 or (possibly) 11 actually can be played back simultaneously, but you've got a selection of 999 'Cue Stacks' that could be connected to these controls.

 

"Cue Lists" or "Cue Stacks" would probably be far more useful in this table as that's something that all theatre-stack capable consoles do have, and is much more easily understood.

 

There is also the very real note that "Submaster" and "Playback" are interchangeable in many modern consoles.

 

There needs to be actual definitions of all terms used in the 'summary' box - I'd add them, except that there's no definition link for "Virtual" playback.

[indyld]

It does seem someone else has done something similar already here, although it seems to have some data in, it doesn't seem to work unfortunately.

 

 

.... once more desks are added, and from a wider range of manufacturers (cheap Chinese ones included), it could end up being a very useful / powerful resource

 

I nearly cited Ross Williams movinglights.com as an example in my earlier post about the difficulties of keeping these things going with limited incentive. The on site changes list suggests that the last addition was in 2005. The site shows how any well intentioned effort can fall by the wayside - it's hard keeping these things current, even with only Martin, Varilite and the other "main" manufacturers. Add the cheapo kit makers and you wonder if how "comprehensive" anything can be.

 

But the BR has the right community to manage this kind of project for the long term.

 

Aside Off Topic Web Rant: While resources like movinglight.com have all the signs of "quality" on the web (and tons of decent inbound links, DMOZ/BOTW listings etc), I get annoyed to find that old, dead sites retain their status long after they seem to expire. Is it any wonder that the sharks move in to buy domains that once flowered but are now just weeds?

[dmoffat]

Would it be an idea to create a website not too unlike you suggestion, but instead for venues across the country, as the number of times where I spend hours looking for tech specs of a venue, and just think, surely someone will have been here before.

 

And even include notes to help anyone who may be working in this venue in the future?

This could even allow PDF's we have found for the spaces to be uploaded?

 

What does everyone think?

[peternewman]

That table is too far geared to Zero88 terminology, which is very confusing for anyone who's not used a Zero88 desk.

I was somewhat conscious people may feel that way, however it turns out Richard actually designed the table layout, so you can blame him! It certainly didn't start off with Zero 88 bias, its just they've spent more time adding desks than other manufacturers... :)

 

On a more serious note:

For example:

What exactly is a "Virtual Playback"?

- The Frog2 manual appears to say that only either 10 or (possibly) 11 actually can be played back simultaneously, but you've got a selection of 999 'Cue Stacks' that could be connected to these controls.

 

"Cue Lists" or "Cue Stacks" would probably be far more useful in this table as that's something that all theatre-stack capable consoles do have, and is much more easily understood.

 

There is also the very real note that "Submaster" and "Playback" are interchangeable in many modern consoles.

 

There needs to be actual definitions of all terms used in the 'summary' box - I'd add them, except that there's no definition link for "Virtual" playback.

You can actually edit in the definition links for the summary box and table by editing the template and then asking a mod to regenerate it if you want Tomo, although I'd understand if you're a bit reluctant, as it does look a bit confusing.

 

However as I say now is as good a time as any to rename/alter the fields. My understanding was virtual playbacks is the total number of cuestacks you can run at once/store, so on a Hog for example you can fire them off, but unlike a physical one you don't get a set of buttons and a fader associated directly with it. Should we rename Playback to Cuestack then? I think as I mentioned above that Subs need to stay somewhere on there, although probably with a note on a lot of desks that they are shared with playbacks, where a sub is effectively a physical cuestack with a single cue.

 

Would it be an idea to create a website not too unlike you suggestion, but instead for venues across the country, as the number of times where I spend hours looking for tech specs of a venue, and just think, surely someone will have been here before.

You mean something like this Dave? Another one of those things that got started but hasn't really been fleshed out enough to be of all that much use. However if everyone who worked in a venue stuck up a basic page about their venue, with a link to its tech specs/website that would probably be a good start.

 

I know I may always seem to be banging on about it, but as a middle ground kind of thing, the wiki, especially with the data tables, seems like a good way to start things off, it's fixed enough that you can pull out relevant data when you need to via the infoboxes, yet free form enough that you can just stick some random detail in if you want.

[dmoffat]

You mean something like this Dave?

 

Yes, I mean something exactly like that Peter. If only there was something like that that existed...

 

Cheers

[simschr]

The ABTT has a good index of theatres on their site - Technical Information on Theatres It's a shame it's not searchable but is very well thought out, and appears to be up-to-date.

 

Chris

[peternewman]

The ABTT has a good index of theatres on their site - Technical Information on Theatres It's a shame it's not searchable but is very well thought out, and appears to be up-to-date.

Without wanting to knock the ABTT, for the couple of theatres I'm fairly well acquainted with, they either aren't in that list, or the info is at least five years out of date. Its also very frustrating you can't even search it by name, or jump to a certain place in the alphabet.

[Tomo]

You can actually edit in the definition links for the summary box and table by editing the template and then asking a mod to regenerate it if you want Tomo, although I'd understand if you're a bit reluctant, as it does look a bit confusing.

Thanks - I started having a look through that lot but I can't work out the dependency chain.

 

So I'll put my suggestion here for open comment:

 

Name: Super Ultra Console

Manufacturer: Stunning Lighting

Lighting Control Protocols: sACN, DMX

Std (Max) Desk Channels: 125 (1024)

Std (Max) DMX outputs (chans): 1024 (2048)

Physical DMX Connectors: 2

MIDI Input: Notes, Controllers, MSC

MIDI Output: Notes

Cuestacks: 999

Main Stack Playbacks: 1

Master Playbacks (* if shared with Subs): 0

Submaster Faders: 24

Submaster Pages: 99

 

This indicates how many desk and output channels you get 'as standard' and how far you could upgrade it.

Also lists the 'physical' DMX connectors instead of Universes, as otherwise it is redundant.

- For example, the Frog has two DMX connectors, but only 512 outputs, while an Eos has no DMX connectors at all but many outputs.

 

With the Stacks, Playbacks and Submasters:

"Main Stack Playbacks" are physical, dedicated playbacks with a GO button and in/out crossfader, separate from the Master Playbacks.

- As they are dedicated, something that could also be a Submaster wouldn't appear here.

 

Eg:

Expression would have two of these (but only one cuestack), Congo would have one.

Something with multiple physical stack playback controls but no crossfader for them would have none - they'd be listed as Master Playbacks.

 

If a Playback is also a Submaster, give it an asterisk.

Eg:

SmartFade 12/48 can use four Subs as Chase Playbacks:

Master Playbacks: 4*

Submaster Faders: 24

 

All of Congo's Masters can be Playbacks:

Master Playbacks: 40*

Submaster Faders: 40

 

A console with 10 dedicated submasters and 10 playbacks that are not shared:

Master Playbacks: 10

Submaster Faders: 10

 

Hog 2 doesn't (really) have Submasters at all:

Master Playbacks: 10

Submaster Faders: 0

 

I think that covers most of the consoles I've seen - I've not made a distinction between "Chase" and "Stack" Playback on a Master, mostly due to consoles like the Pearl.

[David Lee]

TBH most people buying Consoles will be willing to do the homework on what is available and get hands on experience of the programming/ operating of the desks. A good demo is far better than just comparisons.