System Setup

[nothingatall666]

don't try and get things louder. make others quieter.

 

micing the amps will do nothing good. if the bands always return their levels up high then you'll get nothing good coming out of the mic anyway.

 

when I was at school, I sounded for some amateurs like these. (like you, I would set the amp levels at sound check but when I next saw the amps, they would be at 11.) my solution?

Make note of the levels at soundcheck (when it sounded good), then walk onstage and turn them down to that level.

If they are playing, they cant stop and turn up the volume. (if they do, the audience will know who's to blame) and I would go back onstage and turn it down again.

 

There is nothing unprofessional about walking onstage and altering their volume at a concert. so long as you don't make a scene. you are seen trying to do your job after all.

 

my next suggestion would be to talk to the staff in charge tell them about your problem. in the real world there is more respect. in a school you're all students who express thoughts and opinions too loudly.

 

There's nothing else you can do really. adjust their volume to your mic volume. don't try to compete.

[Simon Lewis]

There is nothing unprofessional about walking onstage and altering their volume at a concert. so long as you don't make a scene. you are seen trying to do your job after all.

 

I'd like to see you try that trick with a professional band....!

[Bobbsy]

The first advice is really the best. Get the guitarists to turn down. End of. If they don't want to play quiet then they have a simple choice. Play quietly or go play by yourself in your bedroom.

 

 

To expand a bit on what Simon Lewis says, the situation described by ojc123 is a fairly unusual one. A teacher at a school is the nearest thing to an omnipotent dictator you can find but, out in the real world, the poor guy doing sound rarely had that level of authority. More normally, the sound technician is working for the band or a promoter or both and has to achieve the best sound possible through a mix of negotiation, pleading and technical means. A sound operator who tries to be too dictatorial (or, even worse, wanders on stage and adjusts an amp without permission) is not going to last long and may end up with his hand chopped off.

 

Yes, there are a lot of egos involved and yes, as a sound op I often wish for a far quieter stage. However, simply saying turn it down betrays a lack of knowledge about the electric guitar as an instrument: the amplifier and cabinet are an integral part of the sound. With out the colourations and even distortion that these elements introduce the guitar has a very different, very sterile sound. If the guitarist has decided he wants an over-driven distorted sound, it's not really our job on the sound desk to insist he turns it down or DIs it. Doing so will significantly alter the sound.

 

This thread contains lots of good ideas for how to work WITH the guitarist and band rather than against them. Every situation is different in terms of both equipment and personalities and "rolling with the punches" is part of the sound operator's job. Indeed, despotic teachers aside, I often think the ability to "win friends and influence people" is the most important tool in the sound op's armoury, right up there with technical knowledge and "good ears".

 

The OP for this thread is a student so "just make them turn it down" isn't really an option. The equipment available doesn't let itself to running everything through FOH...so that leaves the poster with a mixture of negotiation and tricks like aiming the amps sideways...or (a favourite of mine) raise them up on chairs or whatever and aim them at the guitarists ears rather the the back of their knees.

 

Good luck anyway.

 

Bob

[stillwave]

There is nothing unprofessional about walking onstage and altering their volume at a concert. so long as you don't make a scene. you are seen trying to do your job after all.

 

Epoxy Glue will save you needing to walk all that way! :huh:

 

Seriously, when I encounter this problem I always find the best way is to either point the cab across stage or explain the reasoning to the guitarists to why they need to turn it down, I use the analogy of a old set of weighing scales with one side the vocals & the other side the guitarist... but don't sound patronising when explaining this! professionals will tend to listen but "professionals" won't so that's when you point the cabs across stage.

 

Regards,

 

Ben Wainwright

[SLM-285]

I'd like to see you try that trick with a professional band....!

 

Lucky for me, their not pros, just divas who all seem to think that they are the next big thing. Admittedly I am not a professional either but I try!!!

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Thanks alot guys, this has really helped. Although not the answer I was looking for, I think probably the nest thing I can do is to get a (trusted) member of the stage crew to look after the amps, all the time, and keep a half decent noise boy on the desk. :huh: simples!

 

I think that part of the problem, is that these bands are formed by the musicians, who at some point rope in a singer, who is perhaps a little shy, and not being able to here themselves sing helps them. (Bearing in mind we don't have monitors, they shouldn't really be able to particularly well) so the band crank it up.

 

Never mind, I shall come down like a tonne of bricks on any one who touches my amps!!! (with reason...** laughs out loud **)

[paulears]

I've had people come up to me at pro gigs and complain about the guitar being too loud. I have pointed to a fader on OFF - and said simply, I agree, but there is nothing I can do about it.

 

Bob touched on it, as Simon did. What we forget is that we are a support service to the people on stage. Out job is to make what they supply sound as good as possible. It is not our job to change their sound, and if we did, we'd be in trouble.

 

We'd like to walk on stage and adjust things, but being professional mean knowing where one job ends and another begins, and the amp as has been said belongs to the player, it's an extension of his instrument. Touching it, without asking is simply not on! I would have a fit if any of my people did this. In fact, I really hate seeing scruffy erks go on stage at all. I even hate it when before the start, black clad, shorts wearing people walk out in front of the crowd and turn mics on. I know sometimes this has to happen, but I hate it. If there is a problem, of course they have to go on, but even then, they need to be as invisible as they can. Walking out and turning down an amp, that simply gets turned back up again is pointless and just being smart-arsey. If they wish to sound bad, by doing things like this, then they are on stage, it's up to them.

 

Technical people do not wish to perform, if they did, they would have the guitar. Technicians support musicians. We are NOT in charge. As we've said, school and college gigs are not like real ones - and I've never know a student take advice from another under these circumstances. Tell them afterwards they sounded rubbish because bla bla bla, that is the only way to do it that makes them understand how what they did didn't work.

 

Frankly - if the teachers in charge are happy, then students should just get on with it and stop worrying.

 

I heard an 18 year old member of the house crew walk up to a guitarist in the sound check and tell him the bridge pickup was simply too piercing for the venue, and he would be better off using the bridge pickup instead. Trouble was although the teenager had no idea who he was, he'd sold more records in his career than many of the current crop will ever do, and that twangy sound was kind of the whole point? He was quite polite, took it in, and then carried on exactly as before, leaving his FOH man to make it sound right!

[Kevin Ross]

I know it has been said before but try to work with the band. For example I have just got back from a strange gig in a cave (Keep your eyes open for a post about this) Anyway most of the bands were quiet acoustic bands so were no problem, however we did have one “rock” band come down.

 

 

 

They were a great bunch of people and whilst helping them on stage with their gear (always an easy way to make friends) I was talking about how this was going to be an interesting gig and if they could work with me to avoid it turning into a mush.

 

 

 

They listened and had all their backline at a sensible level, even the drummer held back a bit! As a result I could get a fair bit of everything in the PA and all things considered it sounded very good.

 

 

 

If however they had not turned down then I would have asked them again and if they still did not turn down then I would just done the best with the cards I have been dealt, as someone once said “Don’t waste your time trying to teach a monkey to do maths, it wastes bananas and annoys the monkey”

[nick7076]

Just to give an example of how bad it can be out in the real world away from school/college.

 

We have just done a charity gig in a local bar. Stage area was aprox 12 foot square with a roof hight of maybe 7 feet. All day the artists were acoustic so nice and simple. Last band on were a metal band! Huge drum kit, massive bass and electric cabs.

Now I'd been running all day with just a kick mic and vocals, with DI for acoustic guitars and mic'd cabs for recording only.

 

This band were so loud on the guitars I couldn't even get a kick level in the FOH! the guitars were drowning everything out.

The lead vocal needed to be so loud in the PA to overcome the guitar cabs there was massive feedback.

 

Fortunately for me the band came with their own engineer so it was all his problem, while I had a beer :up:

 

It was a shame really cos the band were very good musically and in the right (larger) venue would have been heard to better effect.

[KidRay]

It is a tricky situation, of that there is no doubt! Turning down a guitarist's amp might be desirable in some cases (particularly with younger, less experienced players) but does need to be approached with a certain delicacy.

 

Imagine if a venue manager/promoter/whatever decided that the PA was too loud and started messing with your amp racks/limiters etc. How would you feel?

 

I play with a guitarist who uses a 50w Fender valve amp, and that can be earsplittingly loud. Fortunately he's a mature player, uses an amp stand that points the speaker in the direction of his head and knows when to turn down, but there is a limit beyond which he won't turn down because it will affect his sound. Given enough time to tweak the amp/pedals, I'm sure he could get it quieter, but time is usually in short supply in these situations.

 

Valve amps seem to be particularly sensitive to changes in settings, and the amp-speaker relationship also comes into play here, as has already been mentioned.

 

If you're stuck with a drummer who whacks the skins with small tree trunks and a guitarist who turns up to 11, all you can really do is advise them. If they won't listen then they will sound bad, and when their friends in the audience tell them how bad it sounded the penny just may drop!

[paulsjs]

One trick I have used to get guitarists to turn down with out upsetting them is to set up a mic in front of the amp, cable it to the desk but mute the channel or not even plug it in. You can then tell them to drop their amp volume so its a cleaner sound through the PA and get them to adjust their volume to fit the mix. They do all the mixing for you and they generally are non the wiser. It's not the best and slightly un-ethical but it has worked on many occasions, especially in small venues.

 

The most important thing is to mix everything to the drums. If your not micing the kit then the kick / snare sound has to be what you set your mix around. If you DI the bass get drums and bass to play together first and get them sounding nice, then have fun with your guitarists and finally add vocals over the top. This is the best way for a small setup because if they all play at the same time first off you can get confused as to who is loud or soft, especially if you are not familiar with the band.

 

If you can get a set backline and drum kit that all of the bands can use then this is better because you will have most of the levels set already just worry about guitarists actual guitar volume and how loud the drummer hits the skins.

 

Being a drummer I'd never have a go at any other band members but I do need to remind you that in order to change a light bulb a lead guitarist will just hold the bulb up and wait for the world to revolve around him!

[Dave SA]

I know of one chap who engineers in a venue we supply the system for who, when presented with an underpowered / rubbish system will D.I. the guitars to the desk and then set up returns to the stage feeding back to the amps. Not entirely sure that is so healthy for the amps myself but I like the idea of it. Of course if the guitarists turn their amps up he can simply adjust the levels actually reaching the amplifier. Sneaky. He's a colorful guy, as you might gather from the above!

 

He's a studio engineer by trade and I think he's got the idea from some re-amping he's done.