PA Hire

[stevejones]

All good and fair coments too

 

Luckily I've ran a business for 16 years so will bring the same level of professionalism that I apply to that to this area

 

Quite right on the duty of care and testing too - although I suspect that I won't be doing much dry hire so should have decent control of usage from a practicality point of view

 

As for Tax I've got no problem declaring the odd £120.00 again a capex of £8K !

 

Insurance is a good point - anyone you can recommend offer a more comercial based policy than the bog standard MU one?

[pumpkinhead456]

To be fair they're probably fed up of people putting out a complete system with lights out for £400.

 

What are your overheads like? How much do your business rates costs? Your equipment insurance? and your PLI?

The issue is that you CAN charge £400 as it's pocket money. Your other jobs put food on the table. So for those people who put food on the table with a job in THIS industry, they no longer have any work.

 

If people who get their main income from this have to compete, then they' have to offer the same service for less, or more service for the same money. This would mean they'd have to LIVE on £1000 a month between 2 of them. Could YOU LIVE on that figure? This is what you are making others do.

 

 

I'm a SMALL company that does it properly and £1000 a month doesn't cover my expenses, and there are no loans etc.

 

Your expenses will include a salary from the business, where at present ours does not. So basically we are working hard for nothing. And I mean working hard! I will be finishing work at 4 tonight to go and load the car, get a gig set up for half 5, run the gig then maybe be home for midnight before starting work again tomorrow at 8. Why bother? Because we love what we do and would like to grow our business to sustain us at least a little.

Overheads: Storage £40 per month, insurance (including 2m pli) about £400, PAT £40 a year, 2% loan rate from a friend for the equipment.

Of course we could not live on £1000 a month between us, that's just ridiculous. However the other local companies will be turning over way higher figures than we are. As with any market, and with ourselves, competition is what keeps the market driving. With relativley low start up costs the barriers to entry are low for this sector, and therefore competition is potentially greater. As you know, that's when you find your niche in the market and decide how to compare. If you can't afford to compete on price then doon't, however you have to make companies aware why charging a little extra for a better system is going to be beneficial for them.

 

Anyhoo, I best get back to work!

[Pete McCrea]

All good and fair coments too

 

Luckily I've ran a business for 16 years so will bring the same level of professionalism that I apply to that to this area

In which case you won't need us telling you how to do it! I checked your profile and couldn't see anything that indicated the level your at, but the 'How much should I charge' type posts tend to indicate a lesser level of experience.

 

Quite right on the duty of care and testing too - although I suspect that I won't be doing much dry hire so should have decent control of usage from a practicality point of view

 

As for Tax I've got no problem declaring the odd £120.00 again a capex of £8K !

 

Insurance is a good point - anyone you can recommend offer a more comercial based policy than the bog standard MU one?

 

All fair points! As for insurance, have a good search round here, and head for Doodsons on the web.

[Rob_Beech]

Your expenses will include a salary from the business, where at present ours does not. So basically we are working hard for nothing. And I mean working hard! I will be finishing work at 4 tonight to go and load the car, get a gig set up for half 5, run the gig then maybe be home for midnight before starting work again tomorrow at 8. Why bother? Because we love what we do and would like to grow our business to sustain us at least a little.

 

My expenses are business expenses, I certainly do not pay a salary to myself. I'm fully aware of the "working hard" concept too.

 

My point is that you can charge as little as you want in order to get the gig as your personal income comes from elsewhere. This undercuts companies trying to earn a living from this industry. Perhaps they have a much higher turnover, but it's net profit that counts, a petrol station that sells nothing but petrol and diesel can have an enormous turnover but a profit of less than 3%.

 

 

Storage can be very reasonably priced if you can take a massive hit on flexibility, but for maximum flexibility it can cost a lot of money.

 

I don't try an put people off the industry, and fair competition is encouraged. It does drive the market and make people work harder and "go that extra mile". I fully agree there. But it is when things get unreasonable it makes a mess for everyone. My entire turnover for this year is expected to be only just above the VAT threshold, some £14,000 down on last year. This is at least partially down to unreasonable competition. £250 cash in hand is better to the client than £600+vat Even though we're comparing Turbo Aspect to JBL JRX outdoors.

 

Someone also in it to earn a living coming in at £450 + vat I don't mind, it's competition. They'd also get the job but perhaps their overheads and setups more efficient for that kind of event. But £250 cash for a bit of pocket money which the tax man doens't know about, annoys me. I am of course sure you deal with the finance in a legitamate way I'm just giving examples of locals.

 

In the nicest way possible, if you don't do a job during October you'll have a night in with the family, or a night at the local, or a curry. If I don't work I can't fix the leaking duo valve for my climate control on my car, or change the auto box fluid. A second month and you'll be upset that you don't have a lot of work and that you've had to pay a bit of storage out of your pocket, a second month and I'll be eating tesco value noodles and turning the air con OFF (if such a thing is possible) to save a bit of fuel.

 

 

Extremes I know but it's worth thinking about. There's fair competition and then unreasonable competition.

 

 

 

Rob

[pumpkinhead456]

Someone also in it to earn a living coming in at £450 + vat I don't mind, it's competition. They'd also get the job but perhaps their overheads and setups more efficient for that kind of event. But £250 cash for a bit of pocket money which the tax man doens't know about, annoys me. I am of course sure you deal with the finance in a legitamate way I'm just giving examples of locals.

 

In the nicest way possible, if you don't do a job during October you'll have a night in with the family, or a night at the local, or a curry. If I don't work I can't fix the leaking duo valve for my climate control on my car, or change the auto box fluid. A second month and you'll be upset that you don't have a lot of work and that you've had to pay a bit of storage out of your pocket, a second month and I'll be eating tesco value noodles and turning the air con OFF (if such a thing is possible) to save a bit of fuel.

 

 

Extremes I know but it's worth thinking about. There's fair competition and then unreasonable competition.

 

 

 

Rob

 

I fully agree Rob. We are almost singing from the same hymn sheet.

The reasonable competition in my area is the other legitimate companies, who will at times sub contract us if they are busy or do not see a profit in an event. I work close with some of the competition (the ones with the right attitude) and we keep each other involved in what we are doing. This has allowed us to develop contacts with promoters and clubs that we might otherwise have not met.

The unreasonable competition is the person wh'os band has split up and he has a 10k Mackie system to play with. He will phone up gigs that we have already secured, bad mouth us and rubbish our far superior system. That's the wrong attitude and thankfully thus far has not paid off!

So we will both keep working hard, keep up the great customer service, and maybe one day we will meet on the road when we are both doing European gigs :huh:

Lets hope it doesn't get cancelled at the 13th hour like tonights gig did leaving everyone grumpy!

[Chris Adam]

Great to see a hot topic that doesn't ask "which mackie speakers should I buy".

 

I find that most of the small, out of your garage type "companies" get found out pretty quickly up here in Scotland. Most national touring acts have pretty strict riders (ours included) that can and will be compromised on, but if we turn up for a gig and the PA is not sufficient for the room, or worse, then the promoter gets a word in their ear. They don't like this as it means the act wont work with them again, and subsequently, the sub standard PA company gets bumped off future gigs.

 

Sounds like Rob is doing things right. Good gear, good service and realistic pricing being his key objectives. It's a shame that promoters and event organisers can't see the difference from the outset. Doesn't anyone believe in "you get what you pay for" these days? Why do gigs have to go wrong or be a nightmare to deal with before people put their hand in their pockets.

 

To answer the OP, I'd think if it's just a small hire to your mates bands, then 50-100 quid is realistic. I can get a similar system up here for around the 65/70 mark. Just don't go nicking anyone's gigs or they'll talk about you on here. ha ha.

[stevejones]

 

Certainly have limited experience as far as the PA hire biz goes for sure, hence the Blue Room much appreciated advice

 

As far as business goes we've managed to turn a profit in without exception for 16 consecutive years and have over 90% client retention

 

We do this by bringing an honest, professional service to every single client, under promising and over delivering and basically going the extra mile

clients that don't value our level of commitment are quickly canned or priced to lose

 

It's really not rocket science, and you're only ever as good as your last job!

[Rob_Beech]

Which is exactly what you want.

 

And remember, the other 10% are the ones you don't want anyway.

[benhyman]

Rob, that comment was not aimed at you! It is meant at all the "hobbyist" companies that ruin it for the rest of us - people that don't have high overheads, and send crap gear out thinking its great...

[ChazHS]

Rob, that comment was not aimed at you! It is meant at all the "hobbyist" companies that ruin it for the rest of us - people that don't have high overheads, and send crap gear out thinking its great...

 

What?! You mean my Pro Sound speakers won't compete with the D&B rigs like I was told? Damn.... I wanted Glasto with these babies!

[tolley1466]

Rob, that comment was not aimed at you! It is meant at all the "hobbyist" companies that ruin it for the rest of us - people that don't have high overheads, and send crap gear out thinking its great...

 

What?! You mean my Pro Sound speakers won't compete with the D&B rigs like I was told? Damn.... I wanted Glasto with these babies!

 

Stacked side by side? :blink:

[ChazHS]

Rob, that comment was not aimed at you! It is meant at all the "hobbyist" companies that ruin it for the rest of us - people that don't have high overheads, and send crap gear out thinking its great...

 

What?! You mean my Pro Sound speakers won't compete with the D&B rigs like I was told? Damn.... I wanted Glasto with these babies!

 

Stacked side by side? :blink:

 

I wasn't planning to, do you think I'll need more than 1 per side then? Mr. Maplin told me these were so loud I'd never need any more speakers than 2! And surely he knows what he's on about! :blink:

[Vince]

Hi All,

 

Interesting topic!

 

I got into "doing PA" when a friend of a friend asked if I could put something together for a Jam Night - and the rest, as they say, is history. I'm still very much at the bottom of the PA & lighting food chain, and a lot of the gigs I do are simply pub gigs for and with mates. In those cases I am generally treated as one of the band & get an equal split of the nights fee, normally around £50 in Norf London/Herts. I have fun, and the bit of income goes towards the next PA or lighting goodie I've got my eyes on.

 

As I do the sound a) because I love it and b) I can't play an instrument for toffees, that system works fine for "hobby" type gigs.

 

However, when one starts to look at PA wet & dry hire as a business, I fail to see how £50 a night for Nexo kit is ever going to work!! Surely the payback on investment is going to take longer than the serviceable life of the equipment? If you are actually trying to make a living as well, then the maths simply can't work. With the price of fuel, if you have to drive any distance to the gig, you could end up paying out more than you take!!!

 

I realise there is a limit to what people can and will pay, but I would argue that the hobbyists still need to charge a reasonable, amount otherwise it will effectivity and literally knock the bottom out of the market for everyone else.

 

Cheers, Vince

[Rob_Beech]

4 stacks of wide with an amp rack costs around £12000 exc vat at very good rates new. It'll not fetch more than £150 per day around here, no matter what. So it's just over 1% per day. Now, I don't personally see much wrong with that. Of course, I'd love to see £450 a day for it like people get away with down south but if I asked for £200 people would get a full PA for that from the cowboys down the road. Not as good, but a PA all the same.

 

If around here we look at say 1.25% per day, then the nexo system which is probably a good £4000 worth would work out about right at £50.

 

Again, it's all down to the market being full of small people who think that they can buy some unbranded speakers in bright red for £40 a pair and they're then a sound engineer.

 

Vince, your £50 per gig with a band is helping the band get work and move on. You're not doing anyone out of business by doing so. They wouldn't pay a £200 per day rate for an engineer and have no need to. One day your work will pay off and they'll move up a stage in the industry, and so too will the pay, so look forward to it, I'm sure it'll be well deserved.

 

 

Rob

[Joe90]

Hi All,

 

First post here but I'd thought I would throw in my two pence...

 

I play in a band and do sound for other bands, I wouldn't say I'm a professional sound Engineer but I'm no amateur either...

 

Some of the problem regarding money and the amount is the fee that most venues are prepared to pay and a band in the first place. The band I'm is a 9 piece outfit, when we quote our price (£900) pubs think we are joking. We then ask them what they can afford and it normally comes in at £200!!!!! £300 at the most. Once we've hired a PA and Engineer that's all eaten up. We don't play any more pubs now.

 

Social clubs pay better, around the £500 mark. If we hire in a "decent" PA company we will be left with about £200 between 9 of us and its not worth doing... We use a PA guy who charges £120, he uses Peavey gear (I hear you all sigh) but he gets us a good sound, and in the social club scene most are too pissed or tone deaf to know between Peavey and Martin Audio and as a band we end up with a healthier share.

 

So its understandable why these budget guys survive on the pub / club circuit.

 

Also paying more doesn't always pay either, we done a gig a few weeks back, the sound company hired had Nexo, Lab Gruppen, Midas, Klark Teknik, etc... I watched the 2 support bands and the sound was sh*t. Couldn't hear the drums, Some low standing wave thingy booming around when the bassist played low G, muddy vocals, dreadful...

 

That guy with the Peavey stuff has done The Beat, Bad Manners, Lambretta's etc and the sound has always been good when I've seen him Engineer.

 

In my opinion when you hire a PA with Engineer, 70% of the cost is not for the quality of equipment but for the quality of the Engineers ears...!

 

Take it easy

 

Joe.