PA Hire

[RoyF18]

Depending on scale really but I think a lot of people would disagree with you there. Maybe if the audience are too drunk in the pub to notice the difference in sound between Peavey and Martin Audio then perhaps that's the kind of gig that Rob (and other sound professionals on here) are saying that they'd rather not do. £120 for an engineer and PA for a night is not really worth looking at.

 

I think the problem is we've got people talking from two different industry perspectives here. On one hand you've got people who do sound for pub scale bands who own their own small PA. It's understandable that a small band would buy their own cheap unbranded/Peavey or whatever PA because the cost of getting an engineer and decent PA is not sustainable alongside the money that the gig offers. The majority of these people have day jobs/ are students or whatever so that this isn't relied on as an income. Joe - does your Peavey man have a day job?

 

On the other hand you have people who do and hire sound professionally. For a living. Mostly that'll be for music/theatre/events a few levels above the pub band circuit but things start to get a bit nasty when they cross over. i.e. when local Disco Dave decides to quote hilariously low for the local small music festival with his 4 boxes of Peavey aside - "loadsa bass!". The professional company won't bother competing with his beer money quote and that's then effectively a job lost to the industry in general. Once the promoter has paid a low amount one year, it'll be very hard for them to be persuaded to go back to the original cost. Even if the Peavey rig sounded rubbish (which it would).

 

As for the manny with his Peavey rig sounding better than the Nexo/Lab Grup/Midas/KT gig; I know which rig I'd be taking to a gig (a proper gig, not a pub). There is a reason why the best sound engineers in the music industry (and the vast majority of engineers below them) will not use a Peavey rig.

[J Pearce]

The point he was making was that a good engineer is more important than good kit.

 

So if you had £500 you could spend it on £500 worth of kit and find a spotty kid/drunk mate/fred from the pub whose mothers uncles sisters grandson owns a recording studio in Russia to run it; or spend £180 on a decent engineer and £320 on kit.

 

Undoubtedly you'd end up with a lower spec system, but its highly likely it'll sound a LOT better!

[Rob_Beech]

Most bands playing pubs simply can't afford to pay an engineer let alone pay to hire a PA with an engineer. It's not their fault, the pubs can't afford to pay it, it's not their fault either. £500 for a 9 piece to me isn't worth getting up for. Let alone to take a PA out of that (no matter what brand). So hats off to you for persevering. I guess as a band moves up the scale a bit it becomes more worth it.

 

The jobs I am talking about are the ones whereby there is a budget of £2000 for a band self contained, or a band and PA and lights, and the band want £1000 (and are probably reasonable value at that) and the promoter pays £120 for disco dave and pockets the rest (ontop of their cut). Or where you do a job or so many years and then disco dave pops in and say he'll do it for half the money.

[alex_kyuss]

hi all.

I think the largest problem here is that promotors/landlords with ever do not care about sound quality. I have found that in most pub small club gigs people don't really care about sound quality. but of cource they will screem and shout when things go wrong. but they will always go back to daves disco cos there cheep! I sorry but I think its true

[mervaka]

alex: it's unfotunately very true. where quality is needed, people are more prepared to pay money.

 

its just market conditions. the market dictates the required quality, not us I'm afraid.

[TonyMitchell]

alex: it's unfotunately very true. where quality is needed, people are more prepared to pay money.

 

However a layman would quite rightly expect good quality (as one would when engaging any service provider) without having an understanding or interest in the technical aspects or tools of the trade. Most people outside the events & music industries wouldn't know d&b from Peavey or Martin Professional from Acne Unprofessional.

 

disco dave will always be able to undercut. If dave does a diabolically bad job, the client may think twice next time, but that's still a job taken away from a professional. If he does a poor to mediocre job but is of likable character then chances are the client won't ever know any better, so again, that's more jobs taken away from a professional.

 

The biggest problem is those without an understanding of what is required often don't compare apples with apples, the only comparison being the price. I recently put a quote together for a 3-day outdoor event, priced it (what I believed was) generously to get the job, provided a detailed spec of recommendations & what would equipment we would supply, to find the daily rate I'd quoted was what a disco dave had quoted for the full three days B-)

[lightsource]

The biggest problem is those without an understanding of what is required often don't compare apples with apples, the only comparison being the price. I recently put a quote together for a 3-day outdoor event, priced it (what I believed was) generously to get the job, provided a detailed spec of recommendations & what would equipment we would supply, to find the daily rate I'd quoted was what a disco dave had quoted for the full three days B-)

 

Interstingly...here's a bullet point from a job vacancy at the 2012 Olympic Games

 

The Procurement Buyer will play a leading role in planning and negotiating supplier arrangements with the temporary overlay and events industry, achieving LOCOG’s aims to minimise cash outlay and maximise value-in-kind (VIK) opportunities

 

My emphasis.

[smalljoshua]

In other words, do it on the cheap because there is no chance we can beat Beijing 2008. B-)

 

Josh

[SPTTRIAL]

There is a lot being said here about what money is available, pubs and landlords not spending the cash on productions, bands not being able to afford to be able to put the gig on etc. even in the london west end its dificult to do a gig for less than £1000.00 because of van parking and having to double driving in the zone etc. and as someone that plays in a 9-10 peice band I know what the costs of a production is. but how has this come about? when I first started giging in the late 70's there was never a door fee, it was always 5 or 10p on the pint to cover the £40-100 that would get paid to the band at thier local pub, as you all know all that stuff has gone now, but what im getting at. is that this is a culture that we have all been bought up on, that the public have expected entertainment for not a lot of money. in the early 80's I went to japan working for a band and rolled up at a venue that held about 400 people, when I got in there I was shocked to see pm2000 desk, turbosound speakers, lots of american digital effects etc, the kit being way over the top for the equivilnt size and status of venue in the uk, but how did the economics of this work, quite simply it was £20.00 to get in and the place was packed every night, its just in the culture that these things have to be paid for.

[lightsource]

Snipped..............A venue that held about 400 people, when I got in there I was shocked to see pm2000 desk, turbosound speakers, lots of american digital effects etc, the kit being way over the top for the equivilnt size and status of venue in the uk, but how did the economics of this work, quite simply it was £20.00 to get in and the place was packed every night, its just in the culture that these things have to be paid for.

 

Recently I was at a venue in the uk 300ish capacity (as a punter), that had a Midas Heritage desk, over 60u of outboard, Turbosound FOH, and the gig sounded f**kin aweful.

 

Guy on FOH spent more time on his mobile than he did at the desk.

 

Oh...and it was £3 at the door.

 

There are cultural differences, Japan in this instance, seems to have a better definition of 'value for money', but the japanese, sadly, have so much higher standards than we do.

[coxy1977]

I agree with most above, ensure you are insured, items P.A. tested and you have a very strong hire agreement with deposits extra.

 

Customers will not care for your equipment like you will and you do not want to give them the oppertunity to have a case against you for faulty untested equipment.

[swampman]

Regretably this thread reflects the existence of "I am Subsidizing my hobby" (SMH) and "eaning a living with realistic costings and Return on Investment" (ROI).

 

Most of us have gone through the SMH with parents putting up with kids borrowing the car, garage space, NOT contributing to the family home etc. due to their dedication to the disco/band/groupy.

BUT there comes a point where Mr./Ms SMH will have to become realistic: you cannot fulfil pro-band riders with homebuilt kit, you cannot run a "mini-business" from just a mobile phone: secure storage is always a problem, paperwork (estimates, billing, accounts, tax returns...) takes hours and space, girl/boy/spouse/kids will get fed up with a lack of dedication; things get stolen, break down, deliberetely broken, wear out...

 

Then you start looking at quality (more expensive) kit which will last 5 years with only a 10% cost of repair (mostly painting and wheels inc. labour ! ) rather than cheapy speakers... So then you must choose between SMH and being realistic become Mr/Mrs ROI. [END OF RANT]

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I will NOT move a powered mixer and 2 JBL JRX to and from a one night gig for less than €120+tax.

I will NOT set up my main PA for less than €600... (1UKpounds:€1.05)

Why?

Because I must amortize a lorry, pay insurance, obtain a transport licence (for any van over 2 tons in Spain), pay about 300€ a month to the Social Security, be registered with the tax office to trade or: only always do cash no questions - and then expect to not get paid because you are not giving a receipt.

 

What are people expecting ? To download a PA on the internet and play it on MP3 to the punters!!!

GET REAL - Pub bands & discos are a UK low cost exception and definitely fall into the SMH. But then do "British run pubs" even bother to serve cold beer, clean their tables, handle glasses correctly at the bottom... (also in reference to the amateur way many British bars are run even in Spain.)

[paulsparrow]

Try for 1% of cost of system per day, plus your engineering fee (bearing in mind it can be a 14 hour day!) plus a little for transport and see where it goes from there.

There's a huge difference between, let's say, a Mackie rig with a Behringer desk and outboard, battered 58's and 57's; and a d&b or Nexo system with decent monitors, a good desk (Soundcraft GB series or better), and outboard (BSS, TC etc), (or an LS9 or Roland M400, with no need for additional outboard), and some quality mics including some decent (not Chinese) condensors. Trouble is that clients don't know the difference !

[jack the ripper]

A place near me wanted £700 a night for hiring out 2 EV TX2181 subs and 2 EV TX1152 mid/highs, 2 EV amps, processing and engineers. I was stunned at that awful high price.

[J Pearce]

Depends how good the engineers are and how long they're there for.

 

Consider them at £180 each, thats £360, leaves £340 for the kit, which doesn't sound a bad deal. Not an amazing deal by any means, but not a rip off.