nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Nortski, If you can't find a mate with a crossover you can try, it may be easier to get hold of a graphic equaliser instead, just as an experiment. Feed the top boxes via the graphic, with all the sliders below 125Hz set to minimum. Feed the subs directly from the desk. This will reduce the bass being sent to your top boxes. If it all starts to clean up and improve, you're on the way to finding a solution. A proper active crossover would then be the way forward. Pete. Cheers fella, I'll get on to it. Next rehearsal is Tuesday so I'll throw a few things at the singer, suggestions that is not objects ** laughs out loud **. Thx guys, I'll let you's know what happens. Nortski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_hate_fisicks Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I have got a Markbass Little Mark 2 head (the older version of the one in your combo), and the DI out on it is unusable. I'm assuming that it's a fault not a feature, but I haven't had chance to compare it to any others or to get it fixed. I'd try an external DI. Or perhaps try running a jack lead from your tuner out to a line in on the desk if it's not very far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 I have got a Markbass Little Mark 2 head (the older version of the one in your combo), and the DI out on it is unusable. I'm assuming that it's a fault not a feature, but I haven't had chance to compare it to any others or to get it fixed. Hmmm, that's interesting. However; getting the same problem mic'ing it up ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypersound Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hi, just wondering why you want to shove your bass through the PA? On the face of it you are in the world of sound reinforcement and I would have thought that it would be best to leave most of the work of actually producing bass to your amp and leave the PA for tweaking in the upper frequencies just for definition if needed. I would do that every time. Cheers.Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 While it is common in very small venues to have enough volume from the on-stage amps, the idea is that somebody front of house can balance the band sound to make it sound the best it can. It's almost standard to amplify everything, and very often the big problem is the amps on stage are too loud to prevent it being done properly. If you just stick vocals through the system, you don't need to invest in the bass end at all - it's only once you put drums and bass through the PA to make it louder that the problems we're talking about here have an impact. A pub band with some 12"+1" on a stand don't have this problem. The PAs job is to simply make whatever sound the musicians produce loud enough to do the job without changing what it sounds like. In the OPs case, it sounds as if he loves the amp sound, but wanders into the audience and hears something very different, and that is what he wants to put right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The PAs job is to simply make whatever sound the musicians produce loud enough to do the job without changing what it sounds like. Is it really though?Most bands want the sound changed, compressors on vocals and bass, eq on the kick drum etc (If you're bored and want to read my ramblings and some interviews with professional gigging engineers, inc Dave Rat, on this topic then click here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 ha! I rather conveniently ignored that bit! It's perfectly true. I'll modify it to say the job of the FOH engineer is to not make it worse - but even that is stretching it sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I came to the conclusion that the job of the PA and engineer was to realise, as far as possible, the sonic and artistic vision of the artist(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Yeah, the backline is not loud enough to play at most of the venues we'll be performing in. We like the sound we have on stage and mostly FOH also, it's just my bass sound sounds awful out front and it's having a big effect to the way we're playing, it's extremely off putting and this is just in rehearsals. We're not prepared to take it on the road until it's acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyP1955 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Hi, just wondering why you want to shove your bass through the PA? On the face of it you are in the world of sound reinforcement and I would have thought that it would be best to leave most of the work of actually producing bass to your amp and leave the PA for tweaking in the upper frequencies just for definition if needed. I would do that every time.Cheers.Andy Because no bass cabinet can go as low as a decent PA sub, and few bass cabinets reproduce a sound that is remotely close to the sound of the instrument. The only truly great bass sounds I've heard were from guys who were using no bass amp, or were using a bass amp as a personal monitor that could not be heard in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Nortski, If you can't find a mate with a crossover you can try, it may be easier to get hold of a graphic equaliser instead, just as an experiment. Feed the top boxes via the graphic, with all the sliders below 125Hz set to minimum. Feed the subs directly from the desk. This will reduce the bass being sent to your top boxes. If it all starts to clean up and improve, you're on the way to finding a solution. A proper active crossover would then be the way forward. Pete. the KX1.5 has a high pass output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypersound Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Paulears mate, thanks for the advice and no offence taken or intended but I actually do sound for smallish bands in smallish venues so I get the general idea about balancing the sound from front of house :o. My point is that my impression of the PA the OP is using is that it is not designed with bigger venues in mind (single box solution, low (calculated?) spl, no dispersion quoted) leading me to believe that the band would mainly be in smaller venues.... suggesting that there is likely to be plenty of noise without putting everything through the PA. I'm sure everyone goes their own way but for me vocals always go through, guitar/keys always go through even if it is just to boost for leadbreaks and for foldback, kick drum if needed, snare if needed, maybe extra toms but the bass is the last thing on my list. Only if needed. Often it is DI'd but left on mute. The OP says that the backline isn't loud enough for the venues they will be playing in so fair enough. TimmyP1955. "Because no bass cabinet can go as low as a decent PA sub, and few bass cabinets reproduce a sound that is remotely close to the sound of the instrument." I find this to be a very odd thing to say but, as always, am open to being convinced. IIRC open E on a 4 string bass is about 41 Hz and open B on a 5 string is about 30 Hz. How low do you think a "decent PA sub" will go? In my experience most (what I would call reasonable) subs will go down to somewhere between 40 to 50 Hz with a few going a few Hz below 40 Hz but very very few going anywhere near to 30 Hz. However, if a decent PA sub will go lower than a bass speaker why not just take a sub onstage and play through that....? Anyway, back to the plot and the OP. Just wondering if you have a phase/polarity problem with the sub? While I am pushing the boundaries of my, ahem, "knowledge" about these things, I believe that this can sometimes be a problem with bandpass subs. I don't know what the integral DSP does about that. Might be worh making up a lead with reveresed polarity and seeing if that helps. Or, better, try and borrow a LMS unit with a delay/phase function. Also, I would try checking the line level output from your amp into a pair of headphones and, if that sounds good, try the headphones on your desk with flat eq. If that sounds good then you know for sure (rather than just having a pretty good idea) that the problem is with the active PA. HTHAndy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 It's fine - no offence taken. I was just interested in the idea that you never amplified bass? As you last post says adding in 'if needed' makes sense. Perhaps I've just found that 'if needed' in the kind of places I works is the reverse and 'if not needed' would work better for me. I've got a liking for hearing what the bass player is playing (being one myself) so in bigger rooms, even rather nice sound, close to the amp sounds pretty horrible. If you way works in your venues, I've no quibble with that - but I don't tend to do small venues where the PA spends it's time on the more 'restrained' sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypersound Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Paulears, did I say that I never amplify bass? Where did you get that from? Persecuted bass player? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 best to leave most of the work of actually producing bass to your amp and leave the PA for tweaking in the upper frequencies just for definition if needed. I would do that every time.Sorry - I read that as meaning leave it to the bass amp and using the PA to do 'general' (my italics) HF duty. I didn't read it as meaning don't amplify the bass content of the bass guitar, just mix in some of the bass HF. I have to say this isn't a technique that's ever occurred to me. Does that work? I'm not a persecuted bass player - I belive a few people thought I should have been prosecuted after playing, but that's not the same, is it? Seriously, though - I'm still not quite sold on this one. If the player has a particular sound that is what he wants, then small or large venue, from the punters perspective, shouldn't it sound the same. Turning the amp up to compensate for lack of PA bottom end wouldn't work for my playing style. If I'm working I need to hear the drums balanced with what I'm playing. If I had to turn up to enable the audience to hear my amp, I'd not be comfy with that. In fact, I have two bass systems - one is very big and very loud, the other is small and has 2 x 10" speakers. I much prefer the small one. It's loud enough and has a DI socket on the front. In big venues, the sound guy just takes that and does something with it. In most cases, more bass for the audience is the usual thing - I hear it rattling around, but as long as I hear the amp it's ok. If it's a loud gig, then I'll usually have a bit of me in the monitors too. In quieter shows, I don't need me in the monitor. I've also been quite happy DI'ing and using the sound man's wedges. I just can't quite get my head around the concept of having to do an entire gig on my own power - I'd much rather have the PA helping. I'm sure it works for you, but in my experience as player and out front mixer, it's not normal by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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