Hypersound Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hi Paul, Forums tend to breed misunderstanding but I doubt that we are to far away from saying the same thing just coming from different directions. In fariness, I didn't express myself as well as I might have espeically the "every time" bit which was actually a coplete lie. I certainly wouldn't imagine that anyone who has mixed a band in a smallish venue would support any argument that involves any of the performers having to turn up their instruments to be heard - or for any other reason!!! As soon as that point is reached the instrument needs to go through the PA. After all, that is precisely what it is for and it is also why they are paying me! I just think that sometimes people put everything through the PA just because it is there rather than because they actually need to (just like I did when I first started) and, IMHO, not only is the bass probably the last instrument that is going to need reinforcement in a small venue but putting it through when it isn't necessary does not necessarily help the sound, that is all. Quite often I find I can get a better kick sound that way. I am certainly all in favour of 2 x 10" cabs than great big stacks as well. Interestingly, however, I have often been met with resistance from bass players who very much like the sound of their big and loud (and expensive) rig and want to play it at high volume rather than be DI'd. The "that is my sound" argument is difficult to counter and I much prefer your version of it! I don't think that we would fall out if we worked together. By the sounds of it, most of the places you play are large enough to warrant your bass going through the rig while many of the ones I work in (well not doing a lot at the moment) don't really require it. So what is "normal" for you might not be for me. I wouldn't say that I normally put the bass through the PA but I would say that I normally do it if it is necessary. I had a quick look at the specs of the PA the OP is using and sort of assumed (usually a mistake) that the band was working in the sort of smaller venues that I often find myself in, in which case leaving the bass out might be an option. Hope I haven't given you too much of a headache. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrisio Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Hi, just wondering why you want to shove your bass through the PA? On the face of it you are in the world of sound reinforcement and I would have thought that it would be best to leave most of the work of actually producing bass to your amp and leave the PA for tweaking in the upper frequencies just for definition if needed. I would do that every time.Cheers.Andy Because no bass cabinet can go as low as a decent PA sub, and few bass cabinets reproduce a sound that is remotely close to the sound of the instrument. The only truly great bass sounds I've heard were from guys who were using no bass amp, or were using a bass amp as a personal monitor that could not be heard in the house.This makes no sense to me. My favourite live bass sounds tend to be rigs such as the SVT miked, B-15 etc., where the PA is just reproducing the on-stage sound - 'sound reinforcement'. A great sound is a combination of the instrument, any effects, and the desired amplification IMHO. The completely-direct approach may work well for modern active basses, but tends to show up the limitations of vintage gear. I tend to listen to the sound from the backline then try and get as close/sympathetic to that as possible, especially if it's a player that has obviously gone to some effort over their equipment. Or do you only engineer electric jazz gigs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I am certainly all in favour of 2 x 10" cabs than great big stacks as well. Interestingly, however, I have often been met with resistance from bass players who very much like the sound of their big and loud (and expensive) rig and want to play it at high volume rather than be DI'd. The "that is my sound" argument is difficult to counter and I much prefer your version of it! I don't think that we would fall out if we worked together.more often than not, I find the 'that is my sound' brigade are also the ones who want their sound at the expense of how the band sounds as a whole. I always DI a bass, but stick a mic up if the sound of the amp is important enough (from my perspective). that way I have the control over how the band sounds, which is what I'm employed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_hate_fisicks Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I recently did a show with one of the amps the OP has (my girlfriend has one), and while they are a very impressive package for power and tone, being small, they are easily lost. My gig was only for 150 (quiet) people, but I still made sure I took a sub and I put plenty of bass through the PA, because as with most guitar amplifiers, the amp is reasonably directional, and easy to block if someone or something is in the way. Perhaps if the OP were playing with a big stack then he wouldn't need to go through the PA, but with a handy portable monitor type amp as he has, it will almost certainly be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Andy - I've often wondered how we'd all work together? I reckon we'd all get along ok. From my years working with students of all abilities, I'm only too aware of bass players for whom volume at the expense of tone seems their way forward. We're getting a pretty good spread of stuff here, so it's handy to kind of express how we're all doing it! The more different ways of doing things we can describe the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypersound Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Paul, I am enjoying it too and would like to chuck another 2p in but aren't we letting the OP down a bit? Maybe the thread shoudl be split off? For the OP, I had a lazy browse through ebay today and came across another version of the subs you are using and that one had a "phase" (hopefully means polarity) button on the back. Probably a stupid question to ask if your subs have a similar switch and you have tried it but, if so, it will do pretty much the same job as my suggestion about trying a reverse polarity lead. Next thing is trying your link into each side of the PA at a time. Hope that helps Meet the rest of you later..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyP1955 Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi, just wondering why you want to shove your bass through the PA? On the face of it you are in the world of sound reinforcement and I would have thought that it would be best to leave most of the work of actually producing bass to your amp and leave the PA for tweaking in the upper frequencies just for definition if needed. I would do that every time. Cheers.AndyBecause no bass cabinet can go as low as a decent PA sub, and few bass cabinets reproduce a sound that is remotely close to the sound of the instrument. The only truly great bass sounds I've heard were from guys who were using no bass amp, or were using a bass amp as a personal monitor that could not be heard in the house.This makes no sense to me. My favourite live bass sounds tend to be rigs such as the SVT miked, B-15 etc., where the PA is just reproducing the on-stage sound - 'sound reinforcement'. A great sound is a combination of the instrument, any effects, and the desired amplification IMHO. The completely-direct approach may work well for modern active basses, but tends to show up the limitations of vintage gear. I tend to listen to the sound from the backline then try and get as close/sympathetic to that as possible, especially if it's a player that has obviously gone to some effort over their equipment. Or do you only engineer electric jazz gigs? I'm talking rock - all kinds - no "real" music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrisio Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I don't think my old band would have got on with you as an engineer then. The lowest component of our sound (3-piece blues rock) should be the sub component of the kick drum with the bass guitar sitting on top. It usually gelled together best when my amp was mic'ed (Ampeg SVT-II, 8x10 cabinet), ideally with an EV RE-20. It was regularly a battle to get engineers to try this, and most of the time they would admit that it sounded better, when A/Bing with a 'safety' DI. Is this relevant to the original poster? Possibly not, but a great deal of time/effort/playtesting went in into the rig I was using, about £5K and a sore back. I played with 'healthy' but sensible volume, in proportion to the guitarist/drums - and 'Sound Reinforcement' was what was necessary. I had some horrendous arguments with narrow-minded engineers who hadn't heard us insisting that we did things a certain way, creating an inappropriate sound (usually with inappropriate FX - we had 'no toys' written on our rider!) A slight rant there, but an open mind backed by sound technical competency is an important part of being a good sound engineer I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 what's a toy? I hate ambiguous riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrisio Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Me too, ours said "subtle use of reverb only please, no inappropriate FX - 'NO TOYS!'". I don't think it was ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypersound Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Ferrisio, I think that we might be coming from slightly different angles. I have no doubt that there are a lot of better sound engineers than me out there but IMHO, once I have good sound arriving at the inputs of my desk, my job is half done so if any musician tells me how to get the best sound from their gear then I am going to listen every time. Nearly every time it will sound good, if I don't think it does then I will invite them to come and listen and take it from there. If I could just chuck a box of mics and a pile of stands on stage and say "mic yourselves up lads" I would just love it. In fairness, though, your rig is quite easy to mic up. One "problem" that I have with bass players is that a guy turns up with a rig that (off the top of my head) an 18", a 4 x 10" and a horn and a great sound who wants to use that to fill the room because there isn't any way I can mic it up or DI that will sound the same. He has a point...well ish. The other, problem that I have is that bass players use the tone controls on ther guitar and/or amp to set up a sound that sounds good to them on stage when it goes through their gear. I mean, like, how stupid are they!! What are they doing??? ;) So when I DI or get a feed from the back of the amp, the signal I get at the desk is coloured to by the player's efforts to make the gear they are using and listening to on stage sound good. I hope bass players understand that. In particular, if they cut frequencies out, I can't put them back....... Perhaps I should take up gardening..... There is a guy who plays locally who must be well into his sixties. He is bald on top, with lots of hair on the sides and a ZZ Top beard. He has a beer gut and a bit. Every time I have seen him he has had a few with a red nose and a huge smile. He plays a very old precision with wood exposed on the back of the neck and where his arm has rubbed it away on the body. He plays it through an old Laney head and a Laney 4 x 10, both of which are at least as old as me. He doesn't do much fancy very often but he never misses a note, does everything right and, IMHO, has a sound to die for. I have only worked with him once or tiwce. I have tried through a DI and I have tried with a microphone but I have never been able to capture his sound. Gardening it is then.... Cheers.Andy Eidit. Sigh, I have just been told that it is a Trace Elliot head, not a Laney. Not that many people care (only bass players.......) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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