Low budget school theatre - Scanners or Movers?

[ben-collins]

Sometimes after they see what can be done with the new fangled moving lights,

They might be willing to spend more on good quality fixtures.

 

 

I see your point, once they see what can be done with a few cheap fixtures they might be willing to spend more money on better fixtures.

 

It wasn't actuallly my idea, it was the dance and drama department that emailed me to see if it was a possibility, and I kinda see what they mean, because we are a technology school it would be nice to have some kind of automated intelligent lighting.

 

I have found that some 'theatre companies' and dance groups are more hasstle than its worth. They take a lot of time and resource and expect everything for nothing.

 

Im not saying they are all like this, but in the past I have found that these type of groups - when hiring the venue- expect they have access to anything and everyting and get surprised when you say ' no you cant have 15 radio mics / haze / moving lights and LED batterns for no extra (dispite this being said in the tech spec / contract).

 

 

I will agree with that! We get that ALL the time!

[Andrew C]

JEEZ! Ben, are you not hearing this? NO; DON'T BUY THEM!

 

Hire some good ones when you need them, spend the money on proper infrastructure that you CANNOT hire.

[steve h]

Sometimes after they see what can be done with the new fangled moving lights,

They might be willing to spend more on good quality fixtures.

 

 

I see your point, once they see what can be done with a few cheap fixtures they might be willing to spend more money on better fixtures.

 

 

Then hire when needed and see how it goes or you'll be left with a rig of some nice movers drowning out the old cheap ones!

 

On a seperate note the school I work at own 2x 250 entours and 2x 250 washes. I find I use the washes far more than I use the entours, both are useful but if I was told I could only have 2 I would have the washes.

 

Steve

[rossmck]

Not meaning to upset the apple cart more... but whilst I agree with the general consensus that movers in schools are a bad idea I also know of two that have them (and use them effectively) and myself work with a couple of amateur youth theatre groups based in local halls which is close to the school environment..

 

I avoided the cheap fixture route at all cost but have a stock of some older Clay Paky and Martin movers that have been well looked after - perhaps second hand kit would be an option for you? (people like AC, the aptly named Used Lighting, and most hire companies often have used movers for sale) - I know in a school there's complications buying used however you can often pick up brand name lights for a similar price to the iSolutions and Stairville of the world and spare parts are still readily available.

[sleah]

The issue of yes or no has been and is still been done to death!

So... if you are going to buy in to movers or scanners then spend *proper* money on them, don't touch the cheap disco stuff.

I speak from experience :huh:

 

I'm a time-served part-time DJ outside my real job, and personally own two of the Stailville heads mentioned, also eight Martin Roboscan 812 scanners, which are comparable to current mid range DJ/budget scanners.

 

In the past I've tried using the above in shows at work (school!) and have been disappointed. They CANNOT compete against generics, in my case 600w Selecons and 8 PAR64's. Unless you virtually black out the generics they will have little effect.

 

That's not to say I'm disappointed with the kit, I love the 812's to bits and the MV250H's are a fantastic bit of kit for the price, in a disco environment they are brilliant.

 

If you buy budget kit aimed at the DJ/Club market you WILL be disappointed, and buying (say) four MV250H's to say "look what these can do" will probably convince the bean counters NOT to buy in to movers. They are only going to be impressed by kit designed for the job, such as the Martin Mac series.

 

I'll finish off buy saying rather than spend £250 on a MV250H, buy a bucket load of PAR64's and filters.......

[Pattern123]

If you are sensible about what you buy, and if you have the desk, ability and technical support for them, there is nothing wrong with buying movers for a school. Of the schools around here, I know two others that have pairs of secondhand MAC 300 washes (One State school, one other independent) and we have 6 Smartmacs with wash heads if we want to fit them. I am not aware of any problems caused by this. I think the advice to buy known brands with good support is solid - equally hiring makes sense if you only want to use them occasionally, but I do think rather a lot of people on here are living in the past technically. I also wonder how any students can effectively learn about lighting without getting much 'hands-on' experience of moving lights!?

[Ashley R]

I would agree with the general consensus that anything moving in a school is a no no. well for the school to own anyway.

 

You could call me the head tech (student) at my school and I have heard other suggest why doesnt the school purchase movers etc. but once I tell them of all the hardships that come with owning moving they realise why I don't push them to purchase such things. and yes a student that influences their purchases heavily. B-)

 

I would definitely go down the path of get a good solid foundation. make sure you have enough bars to hang lights off, in the right positions, got enough channels of power to each bar? all the infrastructure make sure that is rock solid before you purchase anything else, even basic lanterns.

 

I know from experience what a pain inadequate infrastructure can be. such as we have a nice big motorized lighting grid but have a guess how many channels of cabling is up there? the answer is 7....... :) so every time we do anything magior we run an extra 12-20 ch's of power up there via weiland/ scopex looms and that is very time consuming. :huh:

 

So basically I'm saying get the basics perfect and overdone before we contemplate anything fancy.

[ben-collins]

In the past I've tried using the above in shows at work (school!) and have been disappointed. They CANNOT compete against generics, in my case 600w Selecons and 8 PAR64's. Unless you virtually black out the generics they will have little effect.

 

Well, if your 8 par 64's and selecons wash them out then our 34 1kw par64's and 8 1kw cct spots will definitely overpower them!

[paulears]

To Pattern 123 mainly

 

Simply because the new generation are using the wrong tools for the job. Actually, the tools analogy works quite well. How many different screwdrivers do you need? I wouldn't be without an electric one now, and I did fine without one for years. However - I don't believe I could just buy a bunch of power tools and not have the other odds and ends.

 

If you look through the posts about this subject, you'll usually find the proponents of "Don't buy movers for schools" are not luddites, and many frequently specifiy movers in their own designs and their own venues. What we are saying is simply that movers are not the most useful tool to spend limited funds on. I quite agree that moving wash lights are very useful beasts, but for schools may often end up as ornaments when the skills required to operate them and service them move on as always happens. Why do so many of us end up helping out schools? Simply because they don't have these skills.

 

Vocational education, which is amazingly popular has performance and production pathways. I'd estimate that performance is at least 20 time more popular than the production one, and out of those places that do run the backstage components, they choose the more basic areas of study. The exam boards have determined that moving lights are not an essential for the common lighting unit - they can be used, of course- but there is no requirement to have them. They even suggest that perhaps hiring in is more practical when necessary.

 

Sorry to say, but moving lights are usually toys for the boys to play with, and the lighting produced by them is pretty horrible - and of no help if they wish to work in the industry. It seems every show has to look like a disco, yet nobody is experienced in focussing and subtlety. Everyone wants to go technical before the basics are even mastered.

 

I can work a moving head, but I've never been up a ladder to poke a barn door! Priorities are all wrong.

 

I'm certain that there is nothing at all wrong with a richer school investing in moving lights to supplement what they can do with their generics, but most buy movers to replace the generics, and that is simply bad practice and is not industry practice at all!

 

PS Nobody as yet has chosen a username built around a showtec product, I wonder why?

[Pattern123]

I don't think anyone is saying buy movers to replace generics, but the industry is changing, and actually sometimes shows can be lit without generics. We did one A level piece this year lit solely by 6 smartmacs (Apart from the one floodlight as houselight!), it actually worked very well - for that particular devised piece, and we would have struggled to achieve the same result with generic fixtures. What is important is for students to get the opportunity to work with equipment they will encounter in the industry, and getting that experience hands-on regularly is a good thing. as long as what they are doing is considered, designed, and has a justification, then why not?

[ben-collins]

PS Nobody as yet has chosen a username built around a showtec product, I wonder why?

 

Showtec, Skytec and anything with the work "tech" at the end if it are awful products, even I know that! Normally worth putting in the bin! But there are so many generic brands out now, you just can’t tell whos decent and whos not. Like, I only heard of Stairville until a mate brought it up in a conversation. Thats why I asked here as I did not know what there brand was like. From what ive heard they sound pretty bad. Ive only ever normally been involved with Martin products and have not touch anything else. thats why im quite new to this kind of market, because I am working at a school I now need to know the cheeper budget end of the market, whos deacent and whos not.

[Ynot]

I don't think anyone is saying buy movers to replace generics,

Actually, yes they have and do regularly in these 'discussion'.

The question often gets asked "What mover should I buy for my skool" followed by a list of what kit/infrastructure they do have at present, which usually comprises a handful of basic generic kit.

So those enquiries are looking at getting flashy toys instead of basic tools.

... but the industry is changing, and actually sometimes shows can be lit without generics.

Indeed it is - to a point, but whilst large-scale touring rigs or West End shows can be top heavy with movers, they are pretty much always designed and programmed by highly experienced LDs with the ability to make them work in the environment they're being placed and for the show they are meant to light. But there are still a LOT of professional shows that don't see a single mover in their rig - for good reason.

We did one A level piece this year lit solely by 6 smartmacs (Apart from the one floodlight as houselight!), it actually worked very well - for that particular devised piece, and we would have struggled to achieve the same result with generic fixtures.

My bold/italic on your post - that is the key element to your comment. for that particular piece - Had the school not got access to these Smart Macs how would the piece have been envisioned or designed? Trust me - there WILL have been other ways to light it without having to resort to wagglies - it just takes more imagination and planning. But if wagglies were deemed 'essential' then there is always the option of hiring in something suitable at the time.

What is important is for students to get the opportunity to work with equipment they will encounter in the industry, and getting that experience hands-on regularly is a good thing. as long as what they are doing is considered, designed, and has a justification, then why not?

Therein lies the problem. That is the fact that students do not/are not allowed to get proper hands-on access to generic lighting fixtures to teach them how to properly understand the nuances of focussing a profile, or the correct place to hang a fesnel for a soft back light or the importance of keylight or the effects of sidelight/uplight or indeed the simple task of a properly balanced basic lighting state...

Movers will do more to prevent that part of education because it just creates a lazy way to approach lighting.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Ive only ever normally been involved with Martin products and have not touch anything else. thats why im quite new to this kind of market, because I am working at a school I now need to know the cheeper budget end of the market, whos deacent and whos not.

I think another very valid point in all this has been the fact that IF a school has the genuine NEED (which the vast majority do NOT) to invest in movers, then it is NOT the budget end of the market that needs to be looked at but proper established pro-quality brands that can be maintained and supported properly.

[Bobbsy]

I don't think anyone is saying buy movers to replace generics, but the industry is changing, and actually sometimes shows can be lit without generics. We did one A level piece this year lit solely by 6 smartmacs (Apart from the one floodlight as houselight!), it actually worked very well - for that particular devised piece, and we would have struggled to achieve the same result with generic fixtures. What is important is for students to get the opportunity to work with equipment they will encounter in the industry, and getting that experience hands-on regularly is a good thing. as long as what they are doing is considered, designed, and has a justification, then why not?

 

I don't think anyone would argue with what you've said but, all too often, it's a case of "either/or" rather than having both--and if a school can't afford good, professional movers and the personnel and parts to maintain them, then it's a bad investment.

 

If you go back and read the original post, the school doesn't have the budget for the "equipment they will encounter in the industry". They have a very limited amount of money and were asking opinions of what are, in reality, cheap disco wagglers.

 

Could you have done your A-level devised piece with that sort of flashing crap?

 

Beyond that though, the occasional devised piece is not necessarily typical of most of the A-level syllabus. Would you honestly argue that moving lights are the best choice for things like Strindberg, Artaud, Greek tragedy or Comedia del Arte?

 

If your school has all the generics you could want and you still have the available budget to buy pro quality movers...AND you have the budget and personnel to look after the movers....then by all means go for it. However, this utopian world rarely exists and generally, the best advice is stick to infrastructure spending and rent quality movers on the rarely occasion you need them. Toy disco lights controlled by a junk controller do nobody any favours.

 

Bob

[LXbydesign]

Two notable lighting designs in the West-End that didnt have oringinally - STILL dosent need now, moving lights:

 

'Blood Brothers'

 

'Phantom of the Opera'

 

Any 'new generation' students who insist that an effective lighting rig HAS to have movers in it - codswollop!!

 

Go and see these shows and you will be proved sooooooo wrong.

[paulears]

It's worth noting that the A Level devised piece doesn't give any marks to the performers for the lighting, and even people doing the lighting option are not expected to have any real in-depth knowledge of lighting. The technical options are simply there to give those candidates who cannot/will not act some method of getting grades. The examiners are not technical people, by and large - so their technical expectation is quite low.

 

There's no doubt that lighting can improve people's acting grades, but the lack of it is not penalised in the mark scheme.

 

There are some really well equipped centres with excellent resources, but they are in the minority, and judging by the numbers of under 16s who are the only technical person in the school, few actually give technical any serious consideration.