Fire Risk Assessments

[cfmonk]

Hi Kerry,

 

I have had my suspicions that we're not doing it in the best way at the moment, hence I'm asking here and trying to do the right thing. The option is there for the moment, I would always suggest them at the later site visit anyway but what I'm trying to work out here is whether it should be my problem at all. I have to say even having them mentioned on the website it a helluva lot more than almost every other company we are in competition with, even those with MUTA accreditation.

 

It turns out that this needs more looking at as it probably is our responsibility at least in some way and we may need a change in policy on our part. Next week when we have a minute I'll have a chat with my business partner to work out the best way forwards.

 

I'm still trying to work out the legal ramifications of it. Let's play devils advecote slightly:

 

Say we put a marquee up in someone's back garden and they have a party in it, how much does that differ from them having a party in their own home?

 

What if I build a house and rent it to tenants. They choose to have a party in it and because it's a house and has no fire exits some people get hurt in a fire? (assuming of course that building regs for residential properties were met)

 

What if I build a house and SELL it to somebody and the above happens?

 

Where do these guys stand: http://www.galatent.co.uk/ (no mention of fire exits there)?

 

Thoughts?

 

Chris

[Brian]

Say we put a marquee up in someone's back garden and they have a party in it, how much does that differ from them having a party in their own home?

I'd say that the difference is that a third-party (=you) as a business is making a profit from the former. As a business you are meant to have more knowledge about things like safety than the man in the street (or on the Clapham Omnibus).

 

 

What if I build a house and rent it to tenants. They choose to have a party in it and because it's a house and has no fire exits some people get hurt in a fire? (assuming of course that building regs for residential properties were met)

Two things here...

 

1) As a builder you will only be able to build it if it complies with Building Regs which cover fire precautions for domestic properties

 

2) As a landlord you will only be able to rent it out if it complies with necessary domestic fire precautions and if it doesn't you can be prosecuted.

 

Fire precautions are only there to reduce the risk of fire and associated injuries and fatalities to an acceptable level not to eliminate them completely. IIRC there have been a number of deaths caused by fires at domestic properties where a party was taking place.

 

 

What if I build a house and SELL it to somebody and the above happens?

You'll only be able to sell it if it complies with Building Regs.

[Roderick]

It always baffles me how people wanting to 'do the right thing' then start looking for legal reasons to justify it.

In my opinion you have a moral obligation to provide a safe place of work, or party, never mind what some law or regulation may say.

 

It is really not that hard to work out how many exits you need for the estimated occupancy of your marquee. Don't make it optional!

You could even work it out on floorspace it that makes it easier. For argument sake, let's just say you provide an exit for each 50m2 of total floorspace.

An exit then consists of a velcro panel, a sign and a fire extinguisher. Your client can then indicate where they would like the exits to go, within reason.

And roll the costs, which are minimal, into the hire price rather then a separate item.

 

Just think about what it would do to you, and your business, if you got a call one day to say that your marquee went up in flames and people died because they couldn't get out.

[cfmonk]

Well, my first question would be what were you doing in there to make a flame retarded tent go up in flames.... they must have been trying pretty hard to hurt themselves.

 

And I'm not talking about the morally right thing here. I'm talking about the legal right thing. If what has been said here is the way things are (and I am going to take it as such, another 6 velcro panels ordered today) then there are a whole load of companies who are breaking the law day in and day out.....

 

EDIT: We will not however be providing fire extinguishers as standard as there would then be many more complications about fire marshall training I fear.

[Brian]

... then there are a whole load of companies who are breaking the law day in and day out.....

I suspect you're right.

 

We will not however be providing fire extinguishers as standard as there would then be many more complications about fire marshall training I fear.

I think you could make a good case for that approach. It has to be safer for everyone to get out to a safe distance, call the professionals and watch things burn than for a well-meaning amateur to 'have a go'. So, go through all the likely scenarios and write them into your risk assessment.

[Jivemaster]

We will not however be providing fire extinguishers as standard as there would then be many more complications about fire marshall training I fear.

 

Good plan! Professional events with stewards get extinguishers, Private events without stewards do not. Standing instructions In case of fire get OUT, using all available exits. Risk assessments should include something like this and the reasons for your decision -you don't want some drunken raver at a wedding trying to put out a fire with the wrong extignuisher putting all at increased risk when safety is a fire exit away.

 

 

Water fire extinguishers can be found on line for sub £40 new and fully checked for use, Maybe to have a couple and regard them as saleable items -don't even collect them after the hire. Still there is the competency issue Water, vs Powder, vs Foam, vs CO2 and special chemical for deep fat fires. Disregard Halon as it's no longer available for general use.

[Ynot]

Now then...

I broached this topic with our regular extinguisher service guy. He's been doing the annual service on our kit for some years now and is an extremely genuine guy and not one to give answers just to tout for business.

 

he actually supplies extinguishers to marquis companies on a rental basis - said around about £15 per unit on the whole. He's just supplied some for a large marquis at Edgbaston cricket ground whilst their pavillion (?) is being rebuilt.

 

I got the impression that it could well be a requirement for certain types of event that the kit is supplied but it can vary who is responsible for the sourcing. However, he's happy for me to pass on his info if anyone does need to get a figure for supply/hire of extinguishers.

 

SW Fire Protection, based in Rugeley.

[Jivemaster]

If the premises need to be licensed for their function then normal rules will apply, be incorporated in the licence and need to be observed, this will include calculated exits and fire protection.

 

Where the premises don't need to be licensed then there will be no licence terms to comply with! If there are stewards trained in fire fighting then extinguishers may be viable. If there are no stewards (sober at all times) then the best idea is to get right away if there is a fire incident.

 

Most fire incident simulations show that untrained amateurs are at extreme risk fighting fires. Inebriated party goers even more so. Look at a reasonably recent incident where the ceiling caught fire and the ravers danced among the falling molten plastic til it was far too late to get right out and the ensuing smoke killed several. (Scotland? Glasgow??)

[Roderick]

Well, my first question would be what were you doing in there to make a flame retarded tent go up in flames.... they must have been trying pretty hard to hurt themselves.

Flame retarded is not fire proof. Even steel and concrete burn when it gets hot enough.

I have seen a tent go up in flames and heard about another.

 

Looking at the probability scale, chances are that for a private function the DJ and lighting equipment may be less than well maintained, caterer may not be the most experienced in working in a tent, etc.

All these have sources that could cause a fire. And if the lack of fire extinguishers means that you can't control a small fire, the tent will go up in flames.

Fair point about guests playing with the extinguishers, so why not place them behind the stage / DJ and in the kitchen area. Out of the GP way but close to the most likely source of a fire should it ever happen.

[ramdram]

If you are concerned about legal aspects then your first port of call should be a solicitor...suitably qualified in the aspects being discussed here. A word with H&S people could only be time well spent.

 

I would have thought that your taking "proper legal"advice"...and acting on it...prior to any disaster would be of immense assistance to the defence when your case comes up. If it is a "business" decision whether to include fire exits and or worrying about the cost of fire extinguishers and their maintenance then consider that IF a disaster occurred you would gain immense publicity...of the wrong sort and of little benefit to your business.

 

Suggest you omit the fire exit option on your order form...I can see counsel for the prosecution having a field day with that one.

[cfmonk]

It's not so much a business decision it's more a case of not getting involved in things which open me up to greater liability like fire extinguishers. However when asked to provide them we do so by subhiring in from Red Box Fire Safety.

 

Roderick I think you are quite wrong to suggest I should be putting fire extinguishers in for the DJ and for the caterers. How could I possibly assess the fire extinguisher needs without knowing EXACTLY what they are going to be doing? And then also ensuring that they have somebody who knows what they are doing. If they were "less used to working in a tent" as you suggest (which I disagree with from experiene but never mind) then how likely are they to have trained fire marshalls? Also it gets to the point of WHY SHOULD I? Assuming the caterers and the DJ are being paid then surely they should be providing the fire safety equipment? Why does it become my job to look after them all? Look at it another way, if I put up a marquee and you come and work in it over the weekend, would you expect me to have provided you with a First Aider to look after you in the "venue"?

 

Just as an aside, I went to a wedding in somebody else's (quite lovely) marquee the other day at a National Trust property in Hampshire. 110 people. Single entrance. No fire extinguishers. Humph.

 

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

P.S. Ramdram I can also see the defence saying "Well we gave them the option, they obviously felt qualified to make the decision based on their own risk assessment of the event".

[kerry davies]

Couple of minor points Chris;

1. Whatever any other marquee supplier does or does not do should not affect how your company behaves. Other people are not responsible for my actions, I am.

 

2. Hiring kit to a rank amateur places even more obligation on you to ensure that a professional standard of service, including advice, is maintained. You can't even hire a simple power tool these days without instructions and safety advice being included. ( http://www.hss.com/imagshop/guides/og_527.pdf )

 

3. Research has shown that flame retardance of tent fabric is a relatively minor concern with modern materials. It's the contents that are the primary fire hazard and evacuation, though I agree that should be first choice, is where most deaths occur.

Having only one entrance is simply not acceptable in an enclosed space with more than a few people contained. Travel distance guidelines alone mean that your biggest marquee would be 6m X 6m. "Marquee or tent: Where more than one escape route is provided 18m. Where only a single escape route is provided 6.5m".

And then what happens if the fire is at the only exit? I think Jive has slightly missed the point that you do not have "all available exits", you don't actually have any, if you remember the "plus one" clause.

 

4. When a 12m X 18m fully kitted wedding marquee can cost around £50,000 isn't £50 worth of fire extinguishers a good deal?

 

Don't think I've mentioned it in this post, but have in others, that the latest (April 2007) IStructE guidance on Temporary Demountable Structures might be a useful publication to have around the office.

http://www.istructe.org/publications/new-p...ils.asp?pid=138

[ramdram]

Well, who can say what the Coroner (possibly) might decide about whether or not fire extinguishers should have been available or who should have provided them, or who might be expected to operate them or how many fire exits there should have been.

 

In these days of H&S, litigation etc, a wise man would be prudent to take advice BEFORE the event. At least, as mentioned earlier, your defence counsel could argue you had taken advice and acted on it.

 

Another thought occurs on the subject of fire; perhaps you might ask your insurers what THEY might reasonably expect you to do to mitigate THEIR loss if a third party was so careless as to set fire to your marquee.

[Roderick]

I will leave it to others to continue this discussion. As I am based on the other side of the world I can only discuss concepts as laws and regulations may differ.

As Chris and I seem to differ about these concepts, not much point to waffle on.

 

But as a parting comment, I would suggest you get some solid advice from a professional. Solely relying on an online forum is not the best practice to run a business.

[cfmonk]

Kerry: Absolutely. I was just expressing my humphness at the way other people carry on without caring including the people who get the National Trust contracts.

 

Roderick: The way I choose to run my business seems to be working so hey, I guess I'll keep on blindly making all my decisions based on an online forum.

 

We're going to go down the route of putting in fire exits as per the MUTA and other advice and advising all clients to ensure they have enough extinguishers for whatever they wish to do in the marquee.