Basic mixing

[ExpressYourself]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks to another post I'm going to invest in 4 Trantex S4.4 wireless mic systems for my community choir. I will need to connect them together etc.

 

At the moment I have an Alesis Multimix 4 USB which only has 4 inputs so not enough if I have any other instruments.

 

I am looking at the mic combiners like http://cpc.farnell.com/soundlab/mmx-4-24-1...ixer/dp/DP26118

 

Will that be enough, or do I need a bigger mixer?

 

Helen

 

PS Anyone know what connector the Trantex uses? And that the mic combiner needs? I may need some new cables!

[savage1]

You probably could use the mic combiner but realisticaly your going to want a bigger mixer. IIRC the multimix 4 is only 2 mic channels and a stereo line source so really not suited for live performance or even anything more than very basic recording.

 

Connectors wise I'm assuming the Trantec will output on an XLR and possibly a TRS jack too. No idea about the combiners (which are just a really basic mixer). Personally I would avoid linking multiple devices if a bigger mixer in an option.

[Dccurtis]

I would suggest buying a larger mixer to replace the one you currently have.

 

Linking devices only adds more potential for problem to occur.

[revbobuk]

I often recommend the Yamaha MG166 series - good value for money, and very reliable. But what are you feeding this into?

[boatman]

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PS Anyone know what connector the Trantex uses? And that the mic combiner needs? I may need some new cables!

 

The Trantec 4.4 mics are identical to the Sennheiser Freeport series and you can download the user manual from here

[Simon Lewis]

Helen,

 

Please hold on a second....!

 

Might I suggest two things?

 

1) tell us all the equipment you have in your sound system, so we can see what the whole package is. The desk you have is very basic, and trying to expand it with the Soundlab unit (noisy, distorted and if I remember correctly, very easy to overload) isn't likely to improve your sound at all.

Knowing what your amp and speakers are, plus any other inputs, will help determine where the weak points are, and where your money would be best spent.

 

2) You are understandably excited about buying the radios, and have had good advice about some cost effective ones to buy. However, you talked about 2 hand held radios previously, and now its four... That presents an even greater problem!

 

As Paulears stated, when the digital switchover is completed, it is quite likely that channel 70 - the frequency band that these radios will work on - will become crowded and you will get interference (depending on where you are performing).

You may be able to get all four radios working together with no problem, but you should be aware that these are lower cost units, and it is not unknown for there to be technical issues that cause the mics to drop out or make strange noises.

If it were me, I would be taking a long, dispassionate look at whether buying four radios represents value for money. They will not be an investment, and it is possible that they will become unusable in some circumstances.

If it's possible to discipline your singers to use cabled microphones, then you could buy four good vocal mics of much better quality for less than you would pay for the radio system. Such mics would be reliable, always sound better than an equivalent radio link, wouldn't need to be constantly fed with batteries and would last for years, if not decades.

 

Sorry to sound such a note of caution, but I really wouldn't to see you spend over £500 on radios and cables, and end up disappointed!

 

Simon

[paulears]

To follow on from Simon's useful post - don't forget that if you take up every channel, then what if anybody else wishes to use radios - and maybe have identical systems? If they're not technically minded, even if you tell them to not turn them on, halfway through your section, some idiot is bound to put theirs on and wreck yours. Far too risky, I'd have thought.

 

XLR was also mentioned higher up - these receivers have an unbalanced line level output - that's all.

 

They are actually quite nice sounding, but the battery flap is easily broken, and they're a bit plasticky, so need careful looking after.

[revbobuk]

Erm - actually the Trantec (and the Freeport too) do have balanced XLR out. Check the link to the manual a bit higher up.

[ExpressYourself]

Thanks for your tips, and your warnings. Everytime I think I know what to do, something happens and I change my mind. So let's go back to square one!

 

This is the stuff I have (personally)

2 x The box PA302 A active speakers - 12" horn, 300W bass + 100W treble

1 x Alesis Transactive Mobile speaker with ipod dock and "freebie" microphone

1 x Alesis Multimix 4 USB (has phantom power)

1 x Samson C01 Condenser microphone (needs phantom power), bought for recording

1 x cheapo lavalier microphone off ebay (<£20)

1 x laptop

 

I have a number of applications for this gear

1 - I run choir rehearsals with the mobile speaker, my ipod and the cheapo lavalier mic

2 - I run a glee club and a kids club with the same as above plus the freebie mic for soloists

3 - I do social discos for the above where I use the active speakers with the laptop, multimix and freebie mic

4 - Concerts for the choir. We have just been using the mobile speaker + ipod with the freebie mic and sometimes another borrowed mic. We are accompanied by a guitarist who brings his own amp.

 

Issues with the last concert were that the one mic we used wasn't able to pick up everyone equally, if at all! And the kids singing as a group were hardly audible at all. Soloist not too bad. www.youtube.com/expressyourselfmusic in case you're interested although the kids group aren't there

 

We are now working on some pieces where we have soloists but 2 at a time, if that makes sense, so 2 people take each part. Plus I want them all to move around more, hence thinking I needed radio mics. Plus then I could position them across the full length of the choir and maybe get a more even sound. The kids would love them too.

 

Would condenser mics be better for getting the whole choir effect - and if so how many? I had thought they were only for recording and not for live music but I am learning I may be wrong.

 

But for soloists it would be nice to give them a mic that wasn't free with a cheapo PA

 

The reason this has cropped up is because the Parish council want to support us as a community group and have offered us some money to buy equipment. Since everything used so far is mine personally, I thought it would be nice to get some gear that we could use, but also the other members of the community centre could make use of if they ever needed anything.

 

I'm wondering whether 2 condenser mics (for the choir as a whole), 2 dynamic mics (for soloists) and one Trantec wireless one (in case of singing and dancing, and for the kids to enjoy) would be a good combo. Plus a new larger mixing desk (and leads and stands)

 

Please shoot me down, I know nothing!!

 

Thanks for your help,

Helen

[mostlyharmless]

Condensers on stands over the choir can have a very good effect if used correctly.

 

You have a number of options with soloists, I've used both condensers and dynamic mics. Personally for buying community kit, I'd buy some good quality wired dynamic mics, as they are so multipurpose and robust.

[meyerm3d]

Hi

 

Have you spent all the local counsels money on the trantecs or do you have money left over for extra kit.

If you do have money left or want to invest can you tell me what your maximum budget is please then I might be able to suggest some useful equipment to help you achieve the sound you need for your Choir/soloists.

[ExpressYourself]

I haven't spent anything yet, so still open t suggestions. They haven't given me a budget. They want me to suggest something. But I think they have £1000 altogether but some of that will be for t shirts. They also want me to buy some sheet music but I write my own arrangements so don't really need that. In my head I was thinking £500 for the audio stuff but it'd flexible

[meyerm3d]

Ok having viewed your utube clips and since your on a tight budget and considering what you really want to do with your audio I'm going to suggest that you change your mixing desk to something that has enough inputs for you to expand, basic good quality Equalization on every channel and inbuilt multi effects for when you want to add a touch of reverb to your vocals.

This is all kept around your initial £500 budget so far.

 

The best I've come up with so far is a Yamaha MG166CX USB Analogue Multi-Purpose Console priced at £325 inc Vat its a very good desk for its price. It features 16 XLR/TRS Jack input channels

It has a onboard compressor on the first 6 channels, High, Mid and LO EQ on channels 1-16. Channels 9-16 are stereo channels. The Console also has digital effect programs built in for hall /room reverb

This desk is not complex and with a bit of reading you'll be able to use it in no time at all.

 

Also if your doing lots of solo parts and want the best sound possible I would purchase a Shure SM58 Beta hand held and use that rather than the tie clip radio mics you have brought. Trust me you'll get a much clear and dynamic sound with less feed back. The SM58 Beta is priced at around £147 but is worth the money. Its the industry standard vocal mic and is very robust.

 

This brings you at around £500 and will enable you to get more out of your audio and your Trantec Radio mics. If you do have any money left or you can get maybe £1500 from some where I would change your speakers t something a little more powerful and better quality.

 

I hope this is all helpful to you.

[cedd]

I've worked several times with a local choir that do a very similair thing to yours. Unfortunately from here (work) I can't get onto youtube to watch your clip, but from your descriptions I think it's worth you knowing my recipe;

 

Whilst I have a lot of equipment that I could bring along, the choir's aim is to be self sufficient (they tend to perform whilst I have paid work and my involvement is volountary - the son of the MD works the sound, and I lend them a few bits and pieces). With this in mind I've helped them buy a small setup that is very much on a budget.

 

They went for a yamaha desk (smaller than the one linked to by others), a pair of wharfedale speakers and a few mics. It's the mics that really make the difference.

 

They went for behringer condensers (small diaphragm - more for aesthetics than sound quality, they're less intrusive). A spread of 4 of these up high across thewidth of the choir gave a nice balance and helps "zone" the choir up into the parts, allowing a better balance to be acheived. The behringer small diaphragm condensers really are pretty good for the money. I'd have a search on here for the best ones, and I can't remember the model they use off the top of my head.

 

Do your soloists stand in the choir body itself as they sing? We had major problems getting a signal through the choir because everybody was so tightly packed. Handhelds will help as they move the aerial away from the body. In the end, we've gone for a pair of wired mics on stands at the front of the choir. Soloists walk out to these mics to do their thing. This also has the added bonus that they can see the MD, and they get their moment of fame.

 

The aim is to keep it as simple as possible. Wired mics are going to be more reliable, don't suffer from location-specific interference and are generally an easier solution to deal with.

I'd agree that for this situation, lav mics aren't the best. If you want things hands free, go for headset mics, or handhelds, but be prepared to have to teach some mic technique.

 

Being council money, I assume second hand isn't an option? There are some nice used mixers out there. Spirit folio sx comes to mind.

[d_korman]

Sound reinforcement for a choir? WHY? Are they a very small choir? in a very large space? or is the accompaniment too loud? I sing with two choirs and we would never dream of using PA. Even a small group of 12 can easily fill a medium sized church if they are any good. If the accompaniment is too loud then turn it down! In fact, a single (classical) soloist can be easily heard un-amplified in a large church with a full orchestra - you just need competent musicians and a decent MD who know what they are doing.