Fibreglass ladders for electrical work

[ramdram]

Cheers Tomo, more useful gen.

 

And as very occasionally happens on BR we do stray off topic, but, the gen that surfaces is always useful...especially as it adds to the original answers given year ago.

[adam2]

A GRP ladder is undoubtabley safer if someone on the ladder might contact live parts. However as many others post this should be exceedingly unlikely in a theatre or similar enviroment.

The requirement might make more sense for general building maintenance, rather the the foccusing or adjusting of theatre lanterns.

Remember that in most theatres, any ladders are likely to be used for other tasks as well, in which case GRP could be prudent.

 

What about replacing GLS or similar lamps in houselights, stairways, foyers etc ? If these are replaced whilst live, as is often the case, there is a small but real risk of shock which is less liable to be dangerous with an insulated ladder.

In my work, I recently had to investigate a failed CFL downlight in a lavatory, on removing it from the ceiling I got a shock from the reflector of the fitting. I was very glad to be on an insulated ladder !

This was in an office building, but could just as well have happened in an office, stores, workshop, or toilet in a theatre.

In a perfect world, of course the power would be turned off first, but in practice many lamps are replaced and minor faults investigated with light fittings still turned on.

[Shez]

In my work, I recently had to investigate a failed CFL downlight in a lavatory, on removing it from the ceiling I got a shock from the reflector of the fitting. I was very glad to be on an insulated ladder !

I'm probably missing something very obvious here... How did being on an insulated ladder help? Assuming that you managed to touch both the live pin in the fitting and the earthed reflector with your hand at the same time, the current took the path of least resistance across your hand. A path through your clothes / shoes / ladder and floor would undoubtedly be higher resistance.

[adam2]

In the particular case to which I refer, the allegedly double insulated reflector and housing of the downligher was live due to an internal fault.

On touching this I received a small shock, presumably due to capacitive coupling between myself and earth.

Had I been in contact with a metal ladder, a larger and more likely to be dangerous current, could have passed from the live fitting, via myself and the ladder to the tiled floor which would have a relatively low insulation resistance to true earth.

Rubber feet on the ladder might help but these are provided primarily as an anti slip feature, not for electrical insulation.

Standing a metal ladder on approved insulating rubber matting would help, but is a precaution unlikely to be taken for routine work.

 

If a person is touching or holding earthed metal such as a lighting bar, and they then touch a live conductor, there is the potential for a dangerous shock, no matter what type of ladder is used.

In theatre type work, it is likely that earthed lighting bars or other supports will be touched, and little is gained by use of insulated ladders.

 

There is however some benifit for more general re-lamping and similar tasks, as might be required in areas of a theatre other than the stage.

[S&L]

not to stir up the hornets nest and remaining neutral in opinion, I post just to say that this requirement (FIBREGLASS LADDERS) is pretty common to see this requirement on construction sites where anyone may touch anything that may be remotely linked to electrical cable. this taken from one of the HSE tool box guides:

 

'when working on or close to electrical equipment that is live or may become live, use ladders that will not conduct electricity, such as those with fibreglass stiles..'

 

the rest of the relevant HSE guides have occassional mention of the same idea and most risk assessors are taking a fairly literal and conservative interpretation. no one wants to step away from HSE guidance. I have seen main contractors interpret this as anyone working on ladders in a ceiling void should use fibreglass ladders since most voids carry cables somewhere and they interpret that a sign hung over an isolated breaker is not sufficient as it is still capable of being turned on...similarly anyone with a power tool in their hand, anyone who, ...well you get the picture.

in a similar way, on some construction sites ladders are virtually outlawed because, quoting from the same tool box guide you should

 

'Only use ladders for light-duty, short duration work which has been approved by the responsible person'

 

..in other words design out the use of ladders where possible which means in practice lots of podium steps and mini aluminium towers. then ever so occassionally a H&S officer will deem towers and podiums fall under the general principle of working close to electrical equipment and insist on non conducting towers etc.

 

I guess what I am trying to say here is that your risk assessor is just following the rules but not interpreting them for the ease of finance or workability. He who writes the risk assessment holds the power - which is why often in my day job (did I mention I was only weekend sound engineer!) I tend to either write the risk assessment myself and wait for others to poke holes or if things get really shirty, pull in a specialist H&S consultant to write the assesments and fight my corner. ..just food for thought with the caveat that I am passing on information not advice.

[kerry davies]

S&L rightly quotes the toolbox talks which in turn quote the Ladder Association interpretation that all electrical work requires GRP ladders. That couldn't be because they represent ladder sales, could it? The HSE says that work on "live electrical parts" might require GRP and OSHA is simpler in that it states that work on "exposed live electrical parts" is the criterion.

 

S&L is also right that a logical conclusion would be the banning of all conductive access equipment but even the Ladder Association can see this as extracting the urine and fail to follow through. GRP Tallies, anyone?

 

Where he goes astray is putting the PPE of GRP ladders before other, more necessary safety issues like ensuring that there is no exposed live electrical part to contact. PPE is the last resort not the first.

 

Interpretation should not be left to those with an axe to grind, something to gain or lacking in the full meaning of competence. Training, skill and experience of the work makes one competent and the Management of H&S at Work ACT 1999 clearly states that the employer should ascertain the competence of the risk assessor and consult with employees where necessary. It does not say that inexperienced external blokes with a certificate have the final say.

 

Final irony? The Ladder Association has stipulated the use of Class 1 ladders in one instance and GRP in another when there are (AFIK) no Class 1 GRP ladders in existence. Which stipulation does Biskit follow? This idiotic RA puts him twixt a rock and a hard place, do one the other is wrong.

[ramdram]

Hang on a mo tho' Kerry, your third para' could be construed as the cart before the horse...until you had access you could not know, necessarily, that a problem existed.

 

(Quick aside on the "unknown", but on topic ref precautions; many years ago in my "house maintenance" phase I soon learned that the only screwdrivers to use were of the electricians variety. The number of times I lifted a floor board to discover the homebrew electrical wiring for "home improvements" was perilously close to the screws being used to refix said floorboards, or CH plumbing for that matter. IE you could not know there was a problem so you took precautions "just-in-case". And no, the notion of the DIY expert spending money on an RCD was absent.)

 

Therefore you could posit that using a GRP ladder from the outset would have you covered/protected in the event there was an unknown or unexpected (?) exposed "live" conductor or item.

 

Your fourth para also begs the question of the axe grinders? Notwithstanding the competence question surely the notion of PPE in this case is for those who have no foresight/insight and they are protected despite them lacking ordinary common sense.

 

My take on H&S legislation, wherever, is to protect folk who have no natural sense of caution or inherent self protective mechanism, or are perhaps NOT working under the aegis of an employer...and prosecute those who are simply "chancers" who could damage/injure totally innocent third parties.

[martinorbell]

I was interested to see the comment regarding the cost difference between aluminium ladders versus fiberglass safety ladders. The difference between the two is ENORMOUS. Fibreglass ladders being about twice the cost of aluminium ladders, and are they really necessary? I am not one hundred percent convinced.

 

As for static electricity and it's build up to a point where it could make someone fall of a ladder, ……No sorry …..I don't buy that one either. I truly believe that some of these rules and regulations are just made up in order for us to spend more of our money, not to mention the fact that if we did all that is suggested that we do, there would be no amateur group theatre performances at all. They would be priced completely out of the market, thus affecting the supply of actors and actresses of tomorrow. It's not a question of choosing which of the rules you like and which ones you don't, just be sensible about it. Most of this game is all about COMMON SENSE. Something we seem to have left back at home nowadays.

 

Many thanks for the responses. Believe me, working for a local authority, I'm well aware of the over-zealous tendancies of H&S advisors! Just to answer the earlier questions, the intention behind the requirement for fibreglass ladders was borne from the issue of handling lanterns which, by necessity, need the power to be on for focussing. I agree this seems very OTT, especially as I can assure you all there is no question about the safety of our installed electrics, and a thorough PAT testing regime is in place for the lanterns.

 

It is a 'standard' demand around here for the use of such access devices for anything electric, perhaps made on the basis that the cost difference (vs. alu ladders/steps) is not enormous, and generally worth it even for a tiny benefit in terms of risk reduction. Another point which was made to me (nonsense or not, it was made) is that static build up, or even a couple of volts difference in earth potential between lanterns at height and the floor of the room, may cause a tiny contact shock, insufficient to directly harm but enough to unbalance and thus increase the risk of a fall from the ladder. Insulated ladders would mitigate this risk.

 

I do accept that with longer extension ladders the inherent 'wobblyness' of fibreglass may actually itself pose a more serious hazard, and I will be raising this point with the relevant people. I must stress I'm looking for the most sensible solution, hence my post! I'm in the fortunate (?) position that as this has been raised as a H&S concern, we do have the option of going for the best possible solution, even if many (me included) feel it is way OTT!

[ramdram]

Martin, ref your comments on whether you are 100% convinced fibre glass ladders are really necessary...

 

You may recall from Bertie Wooster's posts that cost is NOT an excuse in mitigation of the cause of an accident.

 

The folk who make the decisions and whose views are the only views such folk care about are the insurance companies. They take the risk so they assess their risk, doubtless with due attention to any publications from HSE, and hence impose their conditions for cover.

 

This may be of interest to all, it is the part of the conditions imposed by an insurance company here in UK:

 

https://www.methodistinsurance.co.uk/.../PDF%20-...

 

Page 22; "Choice of Ladder", third sentence. Note the term they use is non conductive...wooden ladders can conduct electricity when wet, which, you might reasonably assume, implies the use of fibre glass equipment, outside, in the wet. Granted this particular point may be of more importance to the events industry in the "field" so to speak.

 

It is unlikely that this is the only insurance company with this condition. (Might one take the view also that they do not believe in Divine Intervention...) Plus it only takes a phone call to your insurers to discover what they require you to do...if you are unwilling to wade through your contract.

 

This too might be of interest:

 

http://www.healthandsafety.co.uk/steps2.htm

 

Note 54; bullet point seven.

 

I cannot believe the OSHA stuff, say, differs in this respect either.

 

Ref the amdram groups, you would be amazed at the kitty some groups have. One group I worked with had £10k on deposit and were able to pay towards the expenses for up and coming actors at drama school. They were quite old and established and were on extremely good terms with the two VHs in the villages, ergo low or waived hire fees. One of the amdrams I tech for, now, have no problems with stumping up £500 to me for new cables simply for the asking.

 

As for common sense...you are absolutely correct... it's the uncommon sense which folk lack...how long does it take to ring up your ins. broker or ins.co and simply ask what ladder they expect or require you to use when working on lanterns, cables etc.

[madorangepanda]

In my current day job I sell ladders and steps, lots of them

 

Few if any people buy fibreglass extension ladders. Those that do are electricians.

 

Fibreglass steps are a different matter however, with sales about equal to aluminium steps.

 

The non-electricians that buy them do so because they have work on sites that have placed a blanket ban on aluminium stepladders due to the apparent risks outlined in this thread.

 

The same sites freely allow the use of aluminium scaffold towers. Makes perfect sense, right?

 

 

I can do you all a great deal on some "insulated zarges"..

 

Just like the real thing but give me an hour and a few rolls of lx tape.. job done!

I'll even let you pick the colour!

Funnily enough we have an ex-demo 8 rung fibreglass Zarges sitting in our warehouse. Weighs a tonne and nobody wants it. (Oh and they come in a dark orange colour)

[ramdram]

Indeed it does M'o'p, "perfect" sense, ** laughs out loud **.

 

I would suggest it is the time factor...towers, if we are talking about the same thing of course, take a few mins at least to erect and thus give more chance of detecting an overhead obstruction.

 

Plus a section of tower is only 4ft or so "long"...so it would be less likely to hit an overhead obstruction when being transported around a site, when carried by a person of course.

 

I would suggest further that HS investigators have had very few issues of folk getting electrocuted or even just shocked on a tower in comparison with ladders, hence the strictures on ladders and not towers.