Harness

[Sav]

Does anyone know exactly what the deal is with harnesses at the moment. I use a sit harness for walking the trusses but I believe that we are supposed to wear full bodies (which I hate). Can anyone throw some definite light on this.

[colinmonk]

Chris Higgs can probably answer this alot better, but from what I understand its to do with the difference between "work positioning" which a sit harness falls under, or "fall arrest" which a full body harness falls under.

 

A full body harness ( or a 5point harness ) has a 'point' on the higher back and/or on the front about chest height, and these two points are used for fall arrest equipment.

You could potentially cause yourself alot of damage by using any of the waist 'points' for fall arrest equipment. ( backs breaking kind of thing )

 

Work Positioning harnesses dont fall under PPE ( AFAIK ) only Fall Arrest, maybe worth you giving the guys at Petzl / Lyon UK (01539 625903) a call and discussing your needs or queries with them, they are very helpful and can advise you on what requirements to meet.

[Pete McCrea]

I've got the Petzl Navaho Complet full body harness, and it's bl**dy comfortable. The wide waist gives almost a lumber support type belt feel, and can quite often leave it on when I'm not required for the waist support.

 

As colin says above, falling with the support at the middle of the body could lead to a lot of damage. So really for the fall arrest it should be upper dorsal points. The waist and side points are good for positioning and preventing a fall.

[Andrew C]

I don't doubt that a full harness is required to fulfill the requirements for "Fall Arrest" equipment, but I'm not shure why sports climbers find sit harnesses acceptable if there is so much danger. And they are often a lot further off the ground!! (I realise that's not what counts here)

 

I tried rock climbing many years ago, but never went as far as parting with cash for my own kit. A friend who is still a professional climber taught me, and lent me kit as we went. No full harnesses in sight.

 

Any one care to comment?

[gareth]

I don't doubt that a full harness is required to fulfill the requirements for "Fall Arrest" equipment, but I'm not shure why sports climbers find sit harnesses acceptable if there is so much danger.  And they are often a lot further off the ground!! (I realise that's not what counts here)

 

I tried rock climbing many years ago, but never went as far as parting with cash for my own kit.  A friend who is still a professional climber taught me, and lent me kit as we went.  No full harnesses in sight.

 

Any one care to comment?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suspect that if sports climbing fell under the jurisdiction of the HSE, it would be a very different story ...

[Kaboom25]

I thought I'd add my tuppence worth as this is a key area of my work... I'm afraid to say that if a fall arrest system is to be used (which it must be if your monkeying round on trusses), a fully body harness is an absolute requirement as part of your system of work.

 

think of the situation where you're in your sit harness and working away traversing the top of the truss with your double-end lanyard (which is a must too by the way) and you loose your balance on a stray DMX cable on the bottom pole of the truss... you now slide off the truss to one side doing a kind of cartwheel motion and hey presto... two seconds later you find yourself either dangling from a severly dislocated lower limb or lying on the floor waiting for a paramedic to bring a back board for you.

 

A full body harness is designed that when it arrests you from a fall you end up in an upright position and most importantly you're still in your harness! I've seen workers alongside me have very near misses similar to the example above purely because they arent properly trained and use sub-standard equipment. These situations are a burden on all concerned as if they should get themselves into difficulty it is then the other riggers or rope access bods job to figure out how to get the boy(or girl) down.

 

Bottom line is it is extremely hard to slip out of a full body harness... its extremely easy to slip out of a sit harness.

 

Also I feel it's worth mentioning that if you're using 'climbing' harnesses for work at height the equipment is most likely non compliant with the relevant british standards and thus you cannot justify it's use in your risk assessment. Basically you're leaving yourself wide open.

 

Sit harnesses are used mainly for comfort and freedom of movement in rock climbing but you must also bear in mind that this is a passtime/hobby/leisure activity. Call it what you want, but it aint work so they manage to swerve quite a few rules and regs.

 

Finally, the side points on a navaho or similar harness are NOT for fall arrest... they are purely for work positioning. ie, you must have another primary point connected to your waist that is holding you up.

 

If you need further guidance on this pm me or reply to the thread and I'll gladly answer any questions.

 

 

 

Craig.

[Tom Baldwin]

Interesting discussion about sports climbing - how come you never see climbing instructors (who are usually employees, not hobbyists/ sportsmen/women) in full body harnesses - is it simply that HSE awareness has not permeated this sector yet?

[Kaboom25]

It seems to be one of these things that just kind of passes people by and never think about. I must admit I'm baffled how they get away with it. I'm doing a bit of digging at the moment with a similar query - will post the results.

 

In relation to the thread I guess the bottom line is if you're up on a truss you should be in full body harness with a double-ended lanyard with it attached onto either the sternal or dorsal points on the harness.

 

The other issue I could throw into the discussion here is that if you have a team of guys or even just one person working at height it is all very well having them up there with fall arrest PPE etc etc BUT if something did happen whereby they end up hanging from a point on their back a metre below a truss or roof - how do the rest of the crew get them down.

 

Personally on all my crewing jobs concerned with work at height or rope access, safety is always a first priority, but rescue methods are a very close second.

 

CC

[Jivemaster]

There is a statutory requirement for a safe system of work and a system of rescue.

 

There are new guidelines from HSE on using twin tail lanyards mentioned on the current Plasa standards update. --the second tail should never be clipped to reduce the extension of the energy absorber. Read the manufacturers instructionsagain!

[Andrew C]

There is a statutory requirement for a safe system of work and a system of rescue.

 

There are new guidelines from HSE on using twin tail lanyards mentioned on the current Plasa standards  update. --the second tail should never be clipped to reduce the extension of the energy absorber.  Read the manufacturers instructionsagain!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For those not PLASA members, there is a bit more information here.

 

And here (HSE)

[Martin]

The reason that sit harnesses are acceptable for rock climbing is because they are used in a very different way. In this environment the sit harness is attached to a dynamic rope that runs up to the top of the rockface and back down to the bottom where it is 'belayed' by another person. Their job is to keep the tension in the rope at all times. So that if the climber falls, then they only fall a short distance and most of the energy is absorbed by the long dynamic rope.

 

Where as if you are up on a bit of truss and you are using lanyards then you will fall a long way before your fall is arrested. If you were using a sit harness in this situation then even using a shock absorbing lanyard, you body is going to absorb much of the energy, potentially snapping you in half :)

[Chris Higgs]

This old thread again!!

 

If you are at work and required to use a fall arrest system that uses a harness, the harness must be a 'fall arrest harness'.

A fall arrest harness must comply with EN361 to be legal (at time of writing) because that's the standard the PPE Directive cites.

(There are different standards for every part of the fall arrest system, it's not just harnesses. Make sure the PPE is CE marked and the relevant EN standard marked on the kit; a karabiner, for example, should say EN362 on it.)

 

A harness to EN 361 has only a sternal and/or dorsal attachment point for fall arrest.

The reason is partly mechanical and partly practical.

The lanyard or other devices must be attached to the point designed for fall arrest, that is the sternal or dorsal point provided.

The other bits you can hook yourself up with are work positioning facilities, not fall arrest attachments. If I had a quid for every 'professional' rigger I've seen with all the right kit on but his 2m lanyard connected at waist level.

WON'T WORK, CHAPS!

 

The mechanical bit is that you are less likely to do yourself damage as you come to rest in a well supported position and it improves the chance you can 'self rescue' especially using the sternal (chest) position. (There are other medical reasons, too.)

The practical bit is it will help your chances of not getting dead from suspension intolerance/harness trauma/whatever you want to call it.

If you fall and remain hanging until you pass out (you will eventually, and it might be a lot sooner than you think) you REALLY want to be supported in the best 'attitude' ; that is at an angle, not flat, not vertical. Even conscious you don't want to be in a sit harness. Once unconscious you have a very short time left before not needing to worry about it all any more.

As another poster said, in a climbing situation there is a strong chance you can be lowered to safety/relative safety very quickly.

Hanging by your deployed lanyard 6m under a pylon boom in the Cheviots or a roof truss in Earls Court you may take a different view.....

 

With regard to the clipping back of one leg of a twin energy absorbing lanyard, I observed a test where the force measured at the hip point (used to clip back the unused lanyard leg) was 16 kN. (100 kg load, 1m lanyard with EN355 absorber, fall factor 2, for the cognicenti). That's 1.5 tonnes ish on a hip attachment, and perilously close to the ultimate strength of most of the components.

 

Get training - there is a lot about : TAG, Spanset, Dalloz, Tractel, Lyon, Total Access and others.

HTH

[Sav]

Thanks for all that info guys it looks like full bodies all the way then.

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A GOOD NEW YEAR.

[Pete McCrea]

Yeap, with the right lanyards for the job too......all bearing the correct EN standards, and inspected at the right schedules (6 monthly if I remember the training session). As said before- training for this type of work is essential.

[Chris Higgs]

Yeap, with the right lanyards for the job too......all bearing the correct EN standards, and inspected at the right schedules (6 monthly if I remember the training session). As said before- training for this type of work is essential.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

British Standards specify at least every 12 months, but the manufacturer's information is specified as the bottom line for inspection intervals legally, combined with the use the kit gets.

Advice from HSE (based on the BS committee recommendations) is 6 months for lanyards and 3 months where risks are increased because of use or environment.

Unless you are self employed or a senior person in the organistion, this should not be something you are either paid or required to think about.

 

The posts indicate a need for both training and refresher training..........

PPE guidance recommends management understand what their people are being taught, and why, too.

 

In closing, a couple of people have mentioned using fall arrest equipment on trusses. Now irrespective of my involvement with training, truss manufacture and a product that I have shares in (T2) I state for the record (again):

 

If you use a 2m lanyard to EN358/355 on a fully laden aluminium lighting truss and a worst case fall occurs (from 2m above the anchor point on the truss) you may apply a force of as much as 6kN (600 kgs) to the truss.