benweblight Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 we have been considering replacing our furse ('FMX') 18way 2 preset system with an equivalent DMX system I don't have much experience/knowledge of install dimmers and 18ch boards and was wondering what would be suitable replacements on a low budget (theoretically speaking here) the dimmer would preferably be just one unit, wall mountable and hardwired the desk could be just an 18way 2 preset DMX board, but would preferably have a few additional features any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Personally I think you'd be best off going for a 24/48 manual preset board at least, to allow future compatability. Does the dimmer need to be internally wired or provide a hard patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annonomusdesigner Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 we have been considering replacing our furse ('FMX') 18way 2 preset system with an equivalent DMX system I don't have much experience/knowledge of install dimmers and 18ch boards and was wondering what would be suitable replacements on a low budget (theoretically speaking here) the dimmer would preferably be just one unit, wall mountable and hardwired the desk could be just an 18way 2 preset DMX board, but would preferably have a few additional features any suggestions?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would suggest installing a zero88 chilli. giving you 24ways of hard patch dimming. to compliment it with a zero88 alcora 24 channel board. this gives you 2 presets but also memory control facility. (inpoint of fact a have a new one for sale as part of stock if you are interested) zero88 is very well known and not expensive. hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Brennan Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Don't know what budget the school is looking at - but would say (as with most schools) it won't stretch to the chilli range from zero88. Have you been given a budget to work with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSA Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 How many circuits are there in the electrical installation? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Just to give you an idea of what these things cost, a Chilli 24 x 10A install dimmer is £1850, although you might want to get the RCD version for an extra £270. If you want just 18 channels, a Pulsar datapack costs £1360 for 18 x 10A or £1103 for 18 x 5A. Desk-wise, an 18 channel Pulsar two preset costs £419. If you want something with a memory, an Alcora 24/48 is £899 or a Strand 200 series 24/48 is £670. (All the above are list prices excluding VAT - you should be able to get a reasonable discount on them if you shop around) Do take installation costs into account as these can be quite significant - in some cases even more than the equipment itself! Replacing an install dimmer with something similar should be fairly straightforward, providing that major work isn't needed to rejig the cabling. As far as money goes, I know how difficult it is to get a realistic budget. But you should compare the costs of the above to the salary bill - you are talking about a fraction of the annual wages of one staff member for something that will give many years service, and will certainly last a lot longer than, for example, an equivalent investment in computers. And when was the last time any money was spent on lighting? The cost of the new kit will also probably be less than the old stuff cost, even before you take inflation into account! The sums involved for a decent system are really quite trivial compared to other expenditure that any school incurs, and I would encourage anyone in this situation to argue forcefully (unfortunately it's normally the case that anything less gets ignored) for the right level of funding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonjim Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Thats a good suggestion - you would just need to make sure that patching etc is correct. Installation fees would only become apparant if you went for hard wired dimmer (another reason not to go for one), or if you do not have necesary outlets where you require them.... A few years ago I did an install at my old school - and they had an 18 way IEC patch, so we supplied, 3 dimmers (the old pulsar ones were buggered), Zero88 Alcora (as suggested) and we did install another 32A outlet, as there were only 2. Just to give you an idea.............. I think it all added up to £2500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londonjim Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 I should add that the outlet we put in was in 2002 - where it was legal to do so ourselves. I am lead to believe now you have to be registered and have the qualifications to be able to sign them off as safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 The snag with some schools is that they have a policy of only using 'qualified' people as they feel this equates to a competent person for H&S and insurance reasons. Apart from the recent changes in domestic installation rules, anyone can call themselves an 'electrician'. Carrying the legal can, is what puts off people with some form of integrity - there are plenty of sparks who work, but don't actually have the C&G piece of paper. I don't think I've ever seen an electrician asked to show his certificate before working. Registration with a responsible body such as CORGI for gas, and NIEEC for electricity doesn't guarantee much really, but their certficates are pretty well accepted as evidence of competence. My own house used to be owned by a director of British Gas and has dreadful electrics - I just put a drill through a ring main. Satellite, telephone and tv cables come into the room from outside. The 2.5 was running horizontally BEHIND the sockets, with the fixing screws straddling the burried cable. My new hole went straight through - Bang! Power went off, but not every socket - found two wired to the feed to the central heating boiler and one connected to the shed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benweblight Posted February 5, 2005 Author Share Posted February 5, 2005 as far as budgets go, it would have to be as little as we can get an 18ch system for really. we have no three phase outlets whatsoever, the dimmer is hardwired so we would need to install an outlet for that, is this likely to cost much? do you think its worth going for a memory board if each op is only going to do a few shows on it anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronHorn Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 I am a student at a school in a somewhat similar situation, we have a Furse 24way dimmer with a two preset metal can board. We also have a blue patch (SLx?) board with all the cables from several internally wired bars leading to it. In order for some building work to take place a 'qualified' builder removed the dimmer rack from the fake wall to install brick one, he put it back and obviously (to me at least) wired the control wires wrongly into their terminals. The entire system was condemed (having been reinstalled) by SLx. Currently (after some hard power ceeforms were install by the onsite rewiring electricians) we have a 2x6 portable system on long term hire as well as an extra Betapack for the current school production. SLx have quoted near 5k for a new power run from the school's distro, Chilli 24 way and a Fat Frog (future proof and simple to use). We are also considering a rack of Betapack 2's along with a Fat Frog from another company (we want to keep a manual patching system for 'educational' purposes). As for a memory board it is the best idea I can suggest, having plotted and used one for the first time yesterday (Fat Frog). Maybe it's memory capacity wouldn't be useful for band gigs and the like but chases and so on can be set, then for longer run plays, each op can take it in turn to plot and run it. It is so simple to use, I have trained several student technicians on it's use already. It also means that if the director should change her mind and try to blame the LX, the evidence is hard in place :). Personally I would only ever ever go for a company such as SLx or Enlightend (sp?) who are experienced in these areas, if you mention your location I am sure someone could suggest some 'known' people to get in contact with. Finally you mention three phase, if there isn't enough power, I've been lead to believe that a cable run from a power cabinet in single phase is similar to the cost of a three phase run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 SNIP It also means that if the director should change her mind and try to blame the LX, the evidence is hard in place :). DON'T YOU EVER BELIEVE THAT!! Finally you mention three phase, if there isn't enough power, I've been lead to believe that a cable run from a power cabinet in single phase is similar to the cost of a three phase run. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Similar in labour cost, which for a difficult run could be very significant. 3ph can bring with it it's own issues, particularly in places where it is not fully understood; like schools. You can end up with real "jobs worth" issues, and unworkable installs. Trust me, I've got the T shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 took us almost a year to have our 63amp three phase installed... a council hired spark said it would have to come from the substation that feeds the school... actual SEC board person came in and found out that 20 yards away there was a 200amp three phase supply practically unused which only supplied the swimmin pool control electrics so we tapped that... ** laughs out loud ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audio Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Our school got a strand 200 last year, so I got to play with it for a bit before I left, and think its really good for school work, because you can just run it in two preset mode easily if thats all you want, or can set up cues easily for longer play runs, while still being able to adjust fade times on the night to suit how the actors are performing.However, may I suggest getting the 12/24 instead of 24/48 as we ran 60 odd dimmers through a 24/48 and it was simple with a bit of soft patching on the desk (paring up face lights or having all the red wash on one fader etc).Great desk for the money :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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