Digital Audio Console..

[martiaudio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtqHoDGs4k&hd=1

[martiaudio]

I am running my system on SAC (Software Audio Console) and SAWStudioLite currently, from RML Labs in Las Vegas.

 

It's a pretty impressive software, with code written from scratch at a really low level for low-latency purposes. It inputs and outputs from your soundcard drivers (ASIO) and runs like a console - actually, like 25 of them - not like a DAW... specs are amazing. You can build your own rig, or get a turnkey solution which is what I am proposing with a controller that makes sense for it.

 

If you see what the guys behind this rig make with it, you can see they trully trust their gear. Check out their videos, and try the demo!

 

- SAC in the theatre

- SAC at the arena

[martiaudio]

I am running my system on SAC (Software Audio Console) and SAWStudioLite currently, from RML Labs in Las Vegas.

 

It's a pretty impressive software, with code written from scratch at a really low level for low-latency purposes. It inputs and outputs from your soundcard drivers (ASIO) and runs like a console - actually, like 25 of them - not like a DAW... specs are amazing. You can build your own rig, or get a turnkey solution which is what I am proposing with a controller that makes sense for it.

 

If you see what the guys behind this rig make with it, you can see they trully trust their gear. Check out their videos, and try the demo!

 

- SAC in the theatre

- SAC at the arena

[paulears]

I'm a little confused - what exactly are we looking at? Proprietary software from RML, a Behringer controller and a touch screen. What is your product? Is it the housing you're promoting, or what?

 

The title says a new digital console - but it isn't a console is it - or have I missed the point. It's about a grands worth of software, plus the controller and touchscreen - £250 ish. Mic pre-amps at £450 for 24 inputs. That's getting on for a couple of grand, but the new Behringer 32 channel desk is going to be less than this.

 

I'm not trying to put your project down, but are you sure you are not re-inventing something? With two grand in your pocket, which mixer will get the sales?

[Oldradiohand]

Just dress rehearsed a show - it's only a week long and I've had three rehearsals to sort the script and sound out. Ten radios, plus a DI piano, reverb, stage mic, 2xcd for fx.

No, I can't do this on six faders I'm changing stuff on a line by line basis, the actors are inconsistent in their performances and I've had little time to mark up my script, let alone programme a desk. Try mixing a busy show and then start designing a desk.

I used to have a nightmare where I walked into a radio studio to find the desk had been replaced. The new desk had an LCD screen, a "menu" button and an "up" and "down" button. It was ten minutes to transmission. This may have coloured my view.

 

Oh, and with the average small theatre PA you'll never hear the difference between 44, 96 or any other rate.I struggle to demonstrate the difference between linear and mpeg on them!

[paulears]

Moderation: We appear to have two topics with identical titles running - I have merged them together

[chelgrian]

Oh, and with the average small theatre PA you'll never hear the difference between 44, 96 or any other rate.I struggle to demonstrate the difference between linear and mpeg on them!

 

The advantage of higher sample rates isn't fidelity for live sound, it's latency. The latency across an M7CL at 48KHz is around 2.5ms. The latency across a PM5D at 96KHz is about 1.25ms. If the desk is the only thing in your chain this doesn't matter however it starts to matter quite a bit if there are several levels of processing all adding some delay in your system.

[martiaudio]

I'm a little confused - what exactly are we looking at? Proprietary software from RML, a Behringer controller and a touch screen. What is your product? Is it the housing you're promoting, or what?

 

The title says a new digital console - but it isn't a console is it - or have I missed the point. It's about a grands worth of software, plus the controller and touchscreen - £250 ish. Mic pre-amps at £450 for 24 inputs. That's getting on for a couple of grand, but the new Behringer 32 channel desk is going to be less than this.

 

I'm not trying to put your project down, but are you sure you are not re-inventing something? With two grand in your pocket, which mixer will get the sales?

 

Well you can have some opinions.. But I see those forum are not quite for me perhaps..

because topics are turning around in circle..........

 

I am just saying: Hey Here I am I am sound freelance and I have that for a console. currently 32inputs.. one hardware controller, several remotes.. already several way of doing things. No one has the same system than me in the world to a degree. and yet I am about to add some shortcut keys that no one have either!!

Also I say for those who don't want DIY and the serious nitty gritty, because it is going to be if you do.. I AM OFFERING A COMPLETE BESPOKE SOLUTION... I don't claim inventing anything.. Steve ( Apple ) didn't invent anything!!

For those worrying about amount of faders: look at my presentation again in the part that says daisy chained!( I am sure with a massive processor and video cards respective to load of 8 faders, one could built a 128 VCA fader surface, the biggest digital console in the world with a flight case made that would probably cost more than the surface. great.haha) , but watch the SAC videos first, with a guy mixing 64 inputs orchestra with a mouse, and 8 faders.. in fact there is no need for a touch screen and vca.. 2 monitors, mouse and keyboard are just fine..)

 

I haven't re-invented SAC either although I contributes to get it better, I am indirectly promoting it with care by way of my standardized hardware surface that sound guys can't live without. ( and I am the same to a degree.. ) but if you can make a better one since it seems so simple: I would be happy for you and I'd like to see it.

 

You also need to understand the features vs budget vs needs.

If a X32 is what you want good luck with that.. With perhaps some Behringer tweaks after few troubleshooting and some sorting out, it could even be better audio quality then M7/L9 maybe.. but that is one hardware console with fixed possibilities..limited one.

but my system regardless of input number is in a different league all together and the price..There is no way you can get something like that that cheap especially with a synchronized multitrack DAW if you need one!

 

The latency argument is interesting.. I need to dig and test my own system.. but I can tell that it is near nothing to ears.. with inconsistancies between inputs, processing, outputs.. the worse case possible.. I understand the argument of compensation.. I have no opinion on this yet.

48/96.. well despite latency, I won't go there.

But if I can be sure about latency concistance and relative phase controllable, I believe in audio transformer on each and every inputs, it helps a good mix, yet with the advantage of digital. Good quality preamps with transformers would be the ultimate rig for me.. it becomes a little more expensive for me at this point for a show off prototype.. ( still way way under ls9 price tag so you know!!!!!)

and it features 25 virtual consoles with SAC nothing seen anywhere else.

[paulears]

I didn't mean to denigrate what you've done - but the cleverness is the physical/mechanical design isn't it?

 

The components being available, you've just found a neat and nice looking way to connect useful components to produce something that will work. So for some people, instead of using the fader version of the Behringer controller, you could have used the rotary control version and configured the system as perhaps a sophisticated knob per function eq or even effects processor. I'm simply thinking that the concept of building up a working system of hardware and software isn't new, whereas the nice compact integrated unit you have, is new!

 

There's something similar with lighting using MagicQ - where there are some great images on the net of people who have integrated varied combinations of wings and screens to make some really nice functional systems.

 

I don't think you can really call it a prototype of a digital audio system - it's made from standard off the shelf systems, although based on my own experience, you deserve mega compliments on making the hardware and software actually function. I've tried very unsuccessfully to integrate these controllers into one of my Cubase systems and I never got it right - somethings working, but other function refusing!

 

Is the idea to actually sell the housings and the components, or to sell complete systems?

[martiaudio]

I didn't mean to denigrate what you've done - but the cleverness is the physical/mechanical design isn't it?

 

The components being available, you've just found a neat and nice looking way to connect useful components to produce something that will work. So for some people, instead of using the fader version of the Behringer controller, you could have used the rotary control version and configured the system as perhaps a sophisticated knob per function eq or even effects processor. I'm simply thinking that the concept of building up a working system of hardware and software isn't new, whereas the nice compact integrated unit you have, is new!

 

There's something similar with lighting using MagicQ - where there are some great images on the net of people who have integrated varied combinations of wings and screens to make some really nice functional systems.

 

I don't think you can really call it a prototype of a digital audio system - it's made from standard off the shelf systems, although based on my own experience, you deserve mega compliments on making the hardware and software actually function. I've tried very unsuccessfully to integrate these controllers into one of my Cubase systems and I never got it right - somethings working, but other function refusing!

 

Is the idea to actually sell the housings and the components, or to sell complete systems?

Like I said before as a one man behind this I am not interested in having the same harware made for me slick with more vca imbedded trackball etc. but it will do the same thing and cost a fortune to manufacture..

What really matters to me is sound quality functionalities and a minimum of ergonomy.

It is interesting to see midas pro2c and new yamaha cl serie with the same trend in the software and hardware design and vcas. It reasure me that I am in the right direction.

The weak point is ch strip parameters control indeed but that is been addressed with shortcut keys and wheel on track ball acting as a unique virtual potentiometer. In fact that might result in a quicker access in eq comp gates... Than anything else.

 

I think the lighting control is a good analogy to this audio development here with SAC. We might see all sorts of similar dev. In rhe future.

 

I think the lighting control is a good analogy to this audio development here with SAC. We might see all sorts of similar dev. In rhe future.

[jamesperrett]

For instance, a few companies now started to venture into 192kHz territory and it is a very positive development. While Merging have their Pyramix running at 384kHz, which is truly amazing and in my belief, the point where we will trull see the discussion analog vs. digital stop.

 

There are very good reasons for not doing analogue to digital conversions at a higher frequency than necessary. While some signal processing may benefit from high sample rates, the conversion quality will degrade. It is better to sample at a low frequency and do a sample rate conversion to a higher frequency if necessary for a particular process. Many experts suggest that around 60kHz is probably the optimum sample rate - but unfortunately this doesn't belong to the standard set of sampling frequencies.

 

See Dan Lavry's paper on Sampling here for more information on why sampling at 192kHz (or above) is really a step backwards.

 

James.

[martiaudio]

My only comment is that this forum is supposed to be a community for technical professionals, not a free electronic billboard for people to advertise their products.

 

Looking at your post history the only thing you have ever contributed to this community, is generally failed attempts to convince professionals that you know something they don't, and that your beer crate with a touch screen and a BCF2000 bolted inside is somehow better than industry standard consoles when it clearly isn't.

 

I am not acting as the internet police but I really think if you are going to use forums to push your products you should at least contribute to them.

 

fair points.. . So You are an arrogant so called professional out there and I am NOT ??!!?? interesting..

How actually dare you judging me?

 

So my ways irritate you whilst abuse and none constructive remarks are well accepted accross the board.. that is good ..different is good and productive indeed for me. I got a lot so far out of one thread until you came along. But don't worry I am old enough to understand that the world support quantity and all kind so far until it explode.

 

What I take so far is that I haven't contributed enough - I get nothing but abuse over and over from people I cannot qualify here - I confuse people with what I propose here. All That is TRUE.

 

Also true is that you prefer to salivate around the idea of talking ( far away from actual practice ) about a product like a new yamaha amongst other things: products that at its core features what my solution propose already at a ridiculously cheap price to even compare it with.. But yeah you're right PRO it is, BiG and ExpensivE ( like a small house price ) and Whoaaa, something to live for.

 

Is this what you call PROFESSIONAL to fancy about £25K worth of ONE piece or hardware.. I break it down to you.. there are troubleshooting too!!

 

I'd love to participate like you say.. but I don't have any technical enquiry or comment to make on someone else technical question so far sorry. I am new here.

 

Topics that interest me currently are latency the facts and legends..if you could send me the links to other thread here for me to contribute.. I'd thank you.

RESPECTFULLY!

[mervaka]

Let's be honest here. SAC will never be in the same league as a hard realtime DSP system. I've got a similar setup to your system to operate iLive editor, but I wouldn't ever trust that to be a part of the signal chain.

[dosxuk]

Just out of interest Martiaudio - which of the "professional" digital sound desks that you are competing with have you used? And by used, I mean actually used on an event, not looked at from a distance at a trade show.

[paulears]

I think that's it - is using one specifically designed product simpler and easier to use? Using workarounds to make a limited number of faders do things is much more complicated than just bashing a single button and the faders swapping to new purposes. Using multiple devices never seems (to me) to be so reliable. My real question is simply the price. A dedicated mixer with guarantee will always be the 'best' (whatever the best actually is). People would use a more complex system like yours if it's cheap - so if the full blown digital control was 20 grand, and yours was two grand, many people would put up with the method of operation, but the price differential is much smaller - which means most people will go for tried and tested and a one box approach - won't they?