Are shows typically TOO loud in general?

[chelgrian]

Most professional West End and touring shows I've seen recently suffer from what I term a 'hole in the middle' mix.

Can you be more specific about the frequency range you are referring to?

 

With difficulty without resorting to vague and inaccurate terms that you find in HiFi magazines. Firstly I'm not faulting the vocal reinforcement just the instrumental. Lets start by discounting instruments where amplification is part of the thing itself such as as electric guitars and synths that aren't emulating a physical instrument such as a piano. With that restriction I *think* that frequencies in the 50-100Hz range that cover the bottom end of kick drums and instrument such as acoustic basses are emphasised and components which are at the low end of the alto sung frequency range are de-emphasised, possibly somewhere between 150 and 260Hz.

 

I could just be unlucky and have sat in problematic places. At least some of that is in tricky areas which will partially be covered by, possibly ground stacked, subs and partially covered by, possibly flown, full range elements. It could be that either deliberately or unconsciously instrument reinforcement is being EQed in such a way that it improves vocal intelligibility.

 

It's very difficult to tell other than the hand waving 'it sounds wrong to me' and I think (I'm using this word with the doubt placed on me) I know what particular instruments ought to sound like as I inhabit the classical world as a musician as well as a the musical theatre world as a noise boy.

 

To know what's actually going on you'd have to apply some cunning with SpectraFoo or some such.

[Gareth Owen]

You might have actually answered your own question here :

 

It could be that either deliberately or unconsciously instrument reinforcement is being EQed in such a way that it improves vocal intelligibility.

 

If there is one golden rule to musical theatre sound its that you absolutely, positively, HAVE to hear the words. It doesn't matter how good the band sounds, if you can't hear the words you are going to get slammed by the critics and the audience are going to complain.

 

As a result, rightly or wrongly, some designers deliberately cut holes in their orchestra sound to make sure the vocals fit. In theory this is the orchestrators job - a genius song writer, say Stephen Sondheim, will make sure that there is never an instrument in the same frequency range as the vocal playing at the same time as a performer is singing. In practice, not every show benefits from this kind of intelligent arrangement - indeed, sometimes it simply isn't practical. As a result sometimes sound designers have to compromise the sound of the music to make sure that the audience catches the words - Story telling is all and if that means losing some low mid harmonics of a grand piano or compromising the mid tones of an electric guitar, then this is what has to happen.

[Bobbsy]

It's a technique I've used myself, both live and when recording musical theatre-style numbers. However, I always think that if the EQ is noticeable then I've gone too far.

[nothingatall666]

" Unfortunately far too many live concert shows are just way too loud overall and totally dominated by bass and sub bass, very out of proportion to what real sound is, as though if the sound isn't overwhelming, the crowd won't get into it.

The problem with that is that you quickly fatigue your crowd with too much bottom end or out of balance too loud mix. The audience becomes less interested quickly because you've basically just beaten them over the head with an audio baseball bat"

 

I think that there are actually some times when 'hitting them over the head with an audio -bassball- bat' is the aim of the artist. especially in the darker areas of electronic music - it is our job to facilitate the artists intended sonic aims. However, I do thing there is a difference between a well tuned system which is appropriate for the performance, and a standard rig maxed out to reach a rough version of the intended end result.

 

I accidentally watched a B.O.B set once which was very bass heavy. - It was appropriate to have a 'strong' low end for a couple of songs, but after 15mins of it I was actually feeling slightly sick. It got worse as the set went on and by the end I had no idea what the lyrics were or if there was anything in the sound apart from a bass synth.

 

I think it is a shame that audiences have come accustom to think and expect loud music at concerts. - I would much prefer a better balanced sound with a bigger dynamic range.

 

I also think that the recording world has a part to blame in peoples expectations at concerts. popular music is so compressed and many engineers seem to try and match in the live world.

[domroz]

You might have actually answered your own question here :

 

It could be that either deliberately or unconsciously instrument reinforcement is being EQed in such a way that it improves vocal intelligibility.

 

If there is one golden rule to musical theatre sound its that you absolutely, positively, HAVE to hear the words. It doesn't matter how good the band sounds, if you can't hear the words you are going to get slammed by the critics and the audience are going to complain.

 

As a result, rightly or wrongly, some designers deliberately cut holes in their orchestra sound to make sure the vocals fit. In theory this is the orchestrators job - a genius song writer, say Stephen Sondheim, will make sure that there is never an instrument in the same frequency range as the vocal playing at the same time as a performer is singing. In practice, not every show benefits from this kind of intelligent arrangement - indeed, sometimes it simply isn't practical. As a result sometimes sound designers have to compromise the sound of the music to make sure that the audience catches the words - Story telling is all and if that means losing some low mid harmonics of a grand piano or compromising the mid tones of an electric guitar, then this is what has to happen.

 

 

And then the next problem is that once you leave a show, Gareth, the operator slowly drops the relative level of the vocals because they know the words! Not deliberately, but their perception of intelligability becomes different from an audience member hearing the words for the first time. So over a period of time, it does change, I believe. As a designer, how do you adress thisone?

[Junior8]

Yes they are too loud and all too often the sound is lousy too. I had a very good lesson in the problematic nature of all this years ago when I went to a well designed acoustically sound hall to see Stephane Grapelli and the Dizz Disley Trio. The only time during the evening when the sound was any good was after the House PA failed and they had to play purely acoustically. All simply pumped up the volume and it was delightful. This has ever after left me highly suspicious of the craft of the live mix sound engineer.

[Stuart91]

[And then the next problem is that once you leave a show, Gareth, the operator slowly drops the relative level of the vocals because they know the words! Not deliberately, but their perception of intelligability becomes different from an audience member hearing the words for the first time. So over a period of time, it does change, I believe. As a designer, how do you adress thisone?

 

For similar reasons, I'll often glance down a band's set list and ask them to soundcheck with a song I'm not familiar with. I've found in the past that our brains are remarkably good at "filling in the blanks".

[Dave C]

Yes they are too loud and all too often the sound is lousy too. I had a very good lesson in the problematic nature of all this years ago when I went to a well designed acoustically sound hall to see Stephane Grapelli and the Dizz Disley Trio. The only time during the evening when the sound was any good was after the House PA failed and they had to play purely acoustically. All simply pumped up the volume and it was delightful. This has ever after left me highly suspicious of the craft of the live mix sound engineer.

 

How sad... perhaps the mixperson was having a bad day at the office, or perhaps they were dealing with factors beyond their control, or maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't really be anywhere near a mixing desk in the first place.

 

We (live mixing persons) are NOT all like this.

 

Last week I mixed for a Grapelli-esque jazz violinist with a trio.

 

Laeq (A weighted long term equivalent) was 83.5dB SPL at the mix position, with only a couple of dB of variation througout the audience area due to a properly designed and deployed speaker system.

 

 

 

Although.... to answer the original question of 'are shows typically TOO loud in general? '; I'd have to say yes...

[Doug Siddons]

Yes they are too loud and all too often the sound is lousy too. I had a very good lesson in the problematic nature of all this years ago when I went to a well designed acoustically sound hall to see Stephane Grapelli and the Dizz Disley Trio. The only time during the evening when the sound was any good was after the House PA failed and they had to play purely acoustically. All simply pumped up the volume and it was delightful. This has ever after left me highly suspicious of the craft of the live mix sound engineer.

 

How sad... perhaps the mixperson was having a bad day at the office, or perhaps they were dealing with factors beyond their control, or maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't really be anywhere near a mixing desk in the first place.

 

 

My 2p's is he was probably trying to keep the house PA going!

[mervaka]

I work mostly in a 6x15m room with a low 2.5m ceiling at the stage area. Main culprit for me are valve amps and cymbals, which always seem to be louder at the other end of the bloody room! I'm stuck between a venue manager who says it's too loud (and I agree, but sometimes feel helpless) and musicians who are pretty ignorant and/or blind to my cause. The quieter stages always sound *infinitely* better.

[Matt Riley]

The quieter stages always sound *infinitely* better.

Up to a point - once you get to a totally silent stage then things go rapidly downhill again :(

[phil dB]

Up to a point - once you get to a totally silent stage then things go rapidly downhill again :(

I dunno, I've heard some bands where I'd prefer a totally silent stage ;)

[mervaka]

So quiet you could hear a mouse fart?

[whisky-zulu]

I've done a fair few shows where I've put up my portable dB meter on the top of my desk's dog box at FoH and used it as a very rough guide/ confirmation for my ears (after years of being bashed by club night level noise) to build up a gig. On most of the occasions I've had the meter out, I've had someone (usually from venue management) come up to me and tell me to get rid of the thing or they'll lose their licence.

 

Are gigs too loud? I think they are certainly getting that way in indoor venues.

 

To add to Dave C's reply about live mix engineers, there are those of us who are "trained" and know what we doing (understand the concept of gain etc.), and there are those who like to pop up and claim that they have been "trained" and know what they are doing (I've heard it called the "Friend of band syndrome"). I have, sadly, worked alot of shows with the latter and they just don't understand why I'm telling them to turn the masters down.

[peza2010]

As one promoter I work with puts it "I WANT ENOUGH SUB THAT EVERYONE GOES HOME IN PAIN" = silly amounts of turbosound aspect in a room slightly bigger than a double garage