Are shows typically TOO loud in general?

[Gareth Owen]

And then the next problem is that once you leave a show, Gareth, the operator slowly drops the relative level of the vocals because they know the words! Not deliberately, but their perception of intelligability becomes different from an audience member hearing the words for the first time. So over a period of time, it does change, I believe. As a designer, how do you adress thisone?

Hey Mr R! I think as a general rule we try to visit the shows as often as possible to make sure that it doesn't happen. Shows drift by tiny amounts every day, especially when out on tour - sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. It has no baring whatsoever on the skill of the operator - it is simply down to the additive affect of tiny changes which go unnoticed on a day by day basis turning in to one huge change when visited and observed with fresh ears.

[PeterT]

I went to see Wicked in London last Summer and personally felt it was too quiet, there was no impact to the music and singing. I wasn't expecting it to be gut-busting loud but I would have preferred a little more volume. Conversely some of the best live sound was for War of the Worlds where there wasn't too much bass until the fighting machines started walking and by jove you felt that!

[J Pearce]

There is a lot to be said for considering the artistic impact of volume. The well respected Mr Rat has described it as 'sensation of sound', the raw sensation of the sound rather than the brain interpreting it as music.

 

I try to think about theatrical pieces as having a shape, and scale my SPLs to match. A recent production of the sound of music had most of the action relatively quiet, only 85-90dB(A), but the changeover music into the nazi concert and the final climb every mountain were big and loud. I find this sort of contrast has more impact than out and out loud.

 

In the rock and roll world we are often stuck trying to get the vocals over the guitars, but where we can achieve a better onstage balance I prefer to bring the mix down to 95 or so where vocals are more intelligible and the audience can appreciate the sound as more than loud noise. Some groups require more 'sensation of sound' however and I'll mix them higher.

 

Most gigs I go to I end up with my plugs in because they are just too loud to enjoy.

[Simon Lewis]

It's probably worth pointing out that sound pressure level is just one of the contributors to perceived loudness....

[Alec]

Most gigs I go to I end up with my plugs in because they are just too loud to enjoy.

 

+1 :(

[dbuckley]

There is a Kiwi based Pink Floyd tribute band, the Pink Floyd Experience, who are as close as you are going to get to the real thing. Download some of their mixtapes for an idea of what you're missing!

 

They have a resident sound engineer, Andy Craig, who as well as being a thoroughly nice chap, is in my opinion one of the finest mixmen on the planet. When TPFE do The Wall, you get treated to an illustation of dynamics in sound. When there is just a solo singer and an accoustic guitar on stage, you could hear a pin drop in the auditorium. At other times you'll think your ears are going to fall off. When its over you don't feel like your head has been put through the SPL vice with the typical threshold shifting.

 

One of the things I found interesting is that if the SPL has dropped to nothing for said accoustic moment, the audience responds by being silent.

 

I've also seen Roger Waters and his show, and his sound didn't quite match up to TPFE in my opinion, just little elements here and there which were not as good, and especially the overall drum sound. Others might feel differently, of course, depending on how you like your sound. TPFE had a Crest analogue desk and EV X-Array speakers in a lovely indoor thousand seater (now munted), Mr Waters had Yammy digital and Meyer line array outdoors at the AMI Stadium, now also munted.

[S&L]

Anyone else reset levels through a rock show? I have one particular band that I work with an I swear I watch them like hawks and I never see them turning up but it's as though they do, or play harder - or so my ears perceive, so I end up wondering if I should trust them, always lower the overall level when they break and often look for a place mid set where I can lower the master levels.

[GC1971]

Anyone else reset levels through a rock show? I have one particular band that I work with an I swear I watch them like hawks and I never see them turning up but it's as though they do, or play harder - or so my ears perceive, so I end up wondering if I should trust them, always lower the overall level when they break and often look for a place mid set where I can lower the master levels.

 

Er, aren't we meant to make the band appear a personal experience? I assume the band know what they doing. When they're quiet it's represented by the PA's relative level. When they give it some the dynamic range of the PA represents that.

Surely the PA's sonic character is designed to be manipulated by the content flung at it. I know we bend and mould with FX but the dynamic is band driven no?

As for the OP question, I would like to add distortion is the ear bender not just level. 95Db with even a millisec of clip will hurt more than 101Db clean.

[domroz]

And then the next problem is that once you leave a show, Gareth, the operator slowly drops the relative level of the vocals because they know the words! Not deliberately, but their perception of intelligability becomes different from an audience member hearing the words for the first time. So over a period of time, it does change, I believe. As a designer, how do you adress thisone?

Hey Mr R! I think as a general rule we try to visit the shows as often as possible to make sure that it doesn't happen. Shows drift by tiny amounts every day, especially when out on tour - sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. It has no baring whatsoever on the skill of the operator - it is simply down to the additive affect of tiny changes which go unnoticed on a day by day basis turning in to one huge change when visited and observed with fresh ears.

 

Hi Gareth!

 

It always used to surprise me when I visited a show - also in the West End - and could not believe how the mix ended up. Its not the operator's fault. Hearing is a functioin of what your brain translates of course. Thanks for your comments

[GridGirl]

in a lovely indoor thousand seater (now munted)

 

Slightly OT, but it is at least fixable (presuming you mean the Isaac Theatre Royal) - hasn't fallen into the river like another Christchurch theatre I could name...

[dbuckley]

Nope, it was the James Hay.

 

It is really sad that the Issac Theatre Royal is the one theatre that has survived and will go on to be used again, as it has by far the worst sight lines of any of the theatres we had, from an audience member perspective its a hateful venue.

[S&L]

I assume the band know what they doing.

 

taping my mouth with gaffa so as not to say what I think... I will say that in the strictest sense they don't know what they are doing, i.e. I have to bring their set lists for them because they never remember!

[Judge]

Glad to see lots of replies and opinions on the topic and there does seem to be a consensus of "Yes, generally too loud" which I don't think I was expecting.

Remember the old saying "If its too loud, you're too old" I don't know who actually said that, but someone did!

I also remember talking to Motorhead's sound engineer many years ago who told me that when he first got the gig he asked the outgoing engineer how Lemmy liked things mixed.

"Everything louder than everything else" was the reply. So I think there is still a bit of bad volume mentality around...(If some is good, then more must be better)

This issue of perceived volume is interesting, and is probably becoming more of a factor as PA systems become more and more sophisticated and signals become more processed. I have been to a couple of gigs (Goldfrapp springs to mind) that had a seriously huge sound, but it was still possible to have a conversation.

[DurhamEvents]

if you are talking about DJ gigs, then the answer is always YES.

 

It's always a struggle to persuade people about what constitutes 'loud' and 1 of the big problems I've experienced over the years is that younger musicians (bands/ performers/ djs) have to work their way up through playing at venues with poor soundsystems before they get a chance to use higher end equipment. This leads to a few problems. On inferior systems it is usually standard behaviour for it to get thrashed as loud as possible all the time. This leads to a generally 'flat' and intrusive 'middly' tone which interferes with the crowds ability 2 talk to each other and also sounds poor. The problem is that the performer (in particular DJ) is looking to generate a 'feeling' at the gig. This feeling is often simply a combination of alcohol and loud noises, but when people on dancefloors (the non sound professional public) get to the end of their night with ringing ears and smiles on their faces, our young performer associates all this 'loud' unintelligible noise with success.

 

Fast forward a few hundred gigs and our DJ/ guitar band/ performer is faced with a crowd of 300+ people. He's still no audio pro but does know something about sound pressure levels, but his ears have become programmed to believe that a speaker/ amp running constantly in it's limiter with everything on the FOH desk/ DJ mixer showing red equates to a 'feeling' which makes for a happy crowd. So the DJ THRASHES whichever rig he's using to within an inch of it's life, searching in vain for 'that' sound.

 

This is where pro sound gets dangerous, as this is often the point at which people like me get hired in to supply additional sound equipment and expertise... A dangerous combo...!

 

So now instead of an underspecified small system producing something like 125dB from 60- 20k hz it it's absolute peak output at 1 meter our DJ is standing on a 6000 watt plus combo of touring grade kit. Which he turns up. A level meter would show you that he is playing WAY over 125B but to the DJ it doesn't seem loud- he's still searching for 'that' sound he became familiar with on all those inferior systems and at all of those house parties where the CD player in the living room gets obliterated.....!

 

So up go the levels.

 

Into the red.

 

Running the limiters hot on a system more powerful than was required for the job.

 

Introducing distortion from the mixer (totally standard for DJs).

 

Thrashing the massive rig, and sending square waves out of the speakers at 140dB. So the sound is back to being distorted, but this time it's WAY WAY WAY into the realm of 'permanent hearing damage', which is no laughing matter.

 

Why????

 

Who knows really, but I strongly suspect that it something to do with what I'm talking about here.

 

Sadly I've learned this will always happen. The only way to tame a DJ is make the sound pressure levels at the point he stands as loud as the FOH, thus deafening the DJ as well. Most don't care, thankfully....! Obviously it just is not possible to get these kinds of levels in a live mic situation before feedback occurs, but part of this will still be true about ear tuning.

 

Meanwhile, as all of this happens, people like me sit back and think 'how long till that amp/ voicecoil/ eardrum gives up.....?'

[cameroncoats]

I think that some types of event (i.e. dubstep nights) should definitely be bass heavy, but I agree that most music doesn't really feel 'there' if there's far too much bass or the mid high is either above or somehow far away from me but the sub stacks are right in my face… Bearing in mind that a lot of the events that I go to are still small enough that a point source PA is used, I often find that standing near the barriers doesn't sound very good, but a better position would be much further back (most people seem to move forward like a zombie horde, leading me to believe that alcohol severely impairs hearing as well).

Although I do definitely find that I definitely enjoy a night more being beaten up by bass (which isn't necessarily a good thing…) than having too much/overly harsh mid high make my ears hurt...