Padlocking of exit doors in almost empty venue

[Brian]

EVERY door, out of the building obviously, is a fire escape.

 

But how do people on the inside know that that door leads to the outside world and not into another part of the building, or a dead-end?

 

 

Where I'm going with this is as follows...

 

An argument put forwards by the 'not-locking brigade' is that people will try to use them as an exit. Those people usually go on to say 'can you imagine the panic in a darkened smoke filled room if you find a locked door?'

 

My position is that a fire exit should be signed as such in such a way that you can still find the door in a dark smoke filled room. As such, maintained signs above 'full-time' fire exits and switched signs above 'additional' fire exits are a quite acceptable way of managing any risks. I'd go so far as to say that by making it bleeding obvious which doors to use you in fact enhance overall safety.

 

My further position is that any statements that 'my FOH staff can't/won't cope' is a red herring and that if they can't cope with something as simple as unlocking a few doors then you have much bigger problems to address.

[Owain]

EVERY door, out of the building obviously, is a fire escape.

 

No, fire exit routes are routes which are safe to use in the event of a fire.

 

 

 

 

 

There may be additional routes out of the building which are not safe to use in the event of a fire, because they do not give adequate protection from or remain structurally sound during a fire. Examples might be a walkway below large glazed areas which might shatter or a walkway over a flat-roofed kitchen.

 

 

[Ynot]

A question for all the 'never locked ever' camp...

 

When is a door a fire escape/emergency exit?

Hmmm...

Well, my interpretation of a fire escape is a clearly labelled and logically positioned (where feasible) egress which has a means of opening without having to resort to using a key or fiddling with bolts (other than such bolts as have been designed for emergency operation).

 

Other doors from a building will/may exist, and have alternate methods of being secured (eg a main access door) but if they're not designated as fire escape routes then that is perfectly acceptable - as long as there is a clear route from the area served by that door to such a designated fire escape.

 

And I've still not heard anything to adequately explain why fire escape crash bars NEED to be chained, either in occupied or unoccupied premises - and for me, ONE person in a building, be it public, contractor or full time staff is enough to warrant EVERY exit being available to that person in the event of an emergency.

[Roderick]

EVERY door, out of the building obviously, is a fire escape.

/snip/

You don't really mean that if a door is not designated then we can't use it? Can't really see some folk searching for the "right" door, with a fire up their backside, can you?

In court this would be labelled as 'unhelpful'.

For course people can use any means of leaving a building if need be, windows are also popular for that use.

But the discussion is about designated exit doors, with the appropriate signs above them.

Speaking from an Australian point of view, these doors are shown on the mandatory evacuation plans for any facility under AS3475:2010.

And I expect that in the UK a similar escape plan is produced based on careful calculations and the lay-out of the building.

 

There are two very good reasons to maintain these doors as openable:

- You never know where people may end up as part of the work they are doing

- You never know where a fire is to start

Unless you know the answer to BOTH, how can you determine what is sufficient for 'limited use'?

And if you know where the fire is about to start, why not have someone with a fire extinguisher there?

[Brian]

Speaking from an Australian point of view, these doors are shown on the mandatory evacuation plans for any facility under AS3475:2010.

I like the look of those. It's not quite clear from the information I found on line but is the layout style covered by a standard?

[Andrew Edwards]

The Australian Standard appears to describe something similar to what you will find (hopefully) in all hotels, hostels, B&Bs etc.

 

A great idea in principal but I wonder how many actually study this map and more importantly retain that information when staying in a room. In a large hotel, I always count the number of doors from mine to the nearest exits. Fortunately, I have never had to test my memory. I suspect I am in a minority BUT that map may save the other members of that minority's life, along with mine.

(A great book 'Red Watch' by Gordon Honeycombe details a 1974 hotel fire which will stay with me forever)

 

Ultimately, we cannot account for every single possibility BUT having a nice map is better than not having one. In the same way, removing all the chain is better than not.

 

We stick all of these measures in to reduce the likelihoods. Some of them might help many, some of them might only help a few. Some people panic, run around screaming and eventually stagger out of exit. Some people are calm and collected and yet still don't make it out.

 

I can tell you now that there are still long time users of my venue who at the end of a night will walk up through the auditorium, through the bar/lounge down to the foyer, out the main entrance and round the building to their car. Our car park is behind and to the [stage] left of the space. Going out any of the stage exits will pretty much put you in the car park. The far end of it is our assembly point for crying out loud. We had a drill only last week. I was randomly in the foyer when it began and immediately knew it was a drill. In a real alarm, I would have immediately left and inform the duty lead marshal that I had not been in the theatre and I had not fulfilled my fire marshal duties. I decided to have scout round to observe behaviour. There were a handful at the top of the stairs in the foyer and rather than continue down and out of the building, they went back through the bar/lounge, into the theatre and exited through the stage...

 

Think of it this way. ALL of the fire safety measures have come about due to history. In the same way that pretty much every time an aeroplane comes down, the rest become slightly less likely (not including rogue airlines).

 

I know this is labouring a point but...

 

If the number of exits has been calculated for maximum occupancy in the hope that everyone will escape, then having that number of exits for a lower occupancy will MASSIVELY increase the chances that those few will get out. I don't know about you but I like those odds!

[Brian]

The Australian Standard appears to describe something similar to what you will find (hopefully) in all hotels, hostels, B&Bs etc.

I'm curious to see if they are a standard format with standard symbols.

[ramdram]

The ref to windows is certainly not wrong...even if you did try to escape via a window that does not always help...who could forget those dreadful pictures of folk trying to escape in the Twin Towers despite being many storeys above the ground.

 

If any "proof" was needed how irrational behaviour can occur in a fire then surely that must be it, people just want to get out, any way they can.

[Andrew Edwards]

There is also the infamous woolies fire in the 70s with barred windows on the upper floors.

[kerry davies]

Brian, no problem with getting sight of the International Standards on signage, escape plans and the like.

 

Send £96 to; BSI and Bob's your aunties hubby.

 

Of course this being the BSI, based in rip-off Britain, it is around half price for an English version from the Swiss ISO. £54 I believe.

[Simon Lewis]

Send £96 to; BSI and Bob's your aunties hubby.

 

Or be a student whose place of learning subscribes to BSI online and download it (for personal study only) for free...!

[Junior8]

There is also the infamous woolies fire in the 70s with barred windows on the upper floors.

 

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Stardust 1981. Youngsters may wish to look it up.

[Roderick]

The Australian Standard appears to describe something similar to what you will find (hopefully) in all hotels, hostels, B&Bs etc.

I'm curious to see if they are a standard format with standard symbols.

Standard format, yes. Standard symbols, no.

Here's a small excerpt:

Minimum elements

The following shall be included in each evacuation diagram:

(a) A pictorial representation of the floor or area, which shall be at least

200 mm × 150 mm.

(b) The title ‘EVACUATION DIAGRAM’.

© The ‘YOU ARE HERE’ location.

(d) The designated exits in the facility, which shall be green.

(e) The following communications equipment, where installed:

(I) Warden intercommunication points (WIPs), which shall be red.

(ii) Manual call points (MCPs), which shall be red and emergency call points

(ECPs), which shall be coloured white, or have a black border.

(iii) Main controls/panels for the occupant warning equipment.

(f) Hose reels, which shall be red.

(g) Hydrants, which shall be red.

(h) Extinguishers, which shall be red with an additional appropriate colour as specified in

AS/NZS 1841.1.

(I) Fire blankets, which shall be coloured red.

(j) Fire indicator panel (FIP), if provided.

(k) Refuges, if present.

(l) Validity date.

(m) Location of assembly area(s), either stated in words or pictorially represented.

(n) A legend, which shall reflect the symbols used.

[ramdram]

I still get this impression some posters believe folk, during an evacuation, will act rationally as in stopping to read these signs, reflect for a moment or two, work out where they are, then march off to safety. Granted the first few who are nearest an exit may stroll out calmly at the sound of the alarm (to their muster position)...but once the smoke rolls in...because we know fire doors are wedged open for convenience...who can say what panic there could be?

 

Hence my remark on all exits...any outside exit buys you time in which your chances of survival might be increased...granted you may be in an enclosed yard or under this glass fanlight say but at least you are still alive and those few minutes extra really might make all the difference...you never know that the F&R bods might have the fire out by the time you get discovered.

 

Folk trying to escape are not necessarily going to grasp that the designated fire exits are the "guaranteed" safe fire escape route. They just want out...if they trample on the fallen then too bad.

 

You cannot guarantee folk are going to exit in an orderly manner; we may have read about the fires in some shady nightclubs (somewhere in France and another in S America are the ones which spring to mind) where the bodies are packed several deep around a chained up fire exit...clear evidence that nobody in the group of fatalities had the presence of mind to look for another...don't forget they could be stoned, drunk or both...

 

Since the start of this thread I am wondering, now, whether all this stuff such as where the hoses, fire blankets or fire bottles are, and possibility of their deployment is simply an unintended way to slow up an evacuation...such as a great length of hose reel stuck across doorways acting as the ideal trip hazard. Or consider trying to fight one seat of fire only to find you are cut off?

 

I am being persuaded that the best course of action is when hearing the fire alarm everyone just gets out. None of this, "It's probably just a fire drill, I'll wait to be told it's not and anyway it's raining."

 

Don't bother with training all the staff in the use of fire bottles or blankets at all. The fire marshals just usher everyone out and shut the doors as they leave thus removing, partly, one third of the "fire triangle".

 

My "training" consisted of standing, in the sunshine, in the car park watching some gas bubbles get ignited over a water bath then calmly approaching the flames and using a couple of blasts of CO2 to quell the raging inferno. I have not been "trained" how to use a water extinguisher( or foam, or powder) as in where to actually point the water jet to best effect...yet I have got a certificate.

 

Am I really equipped to decide about putting out a fire? Consider too I might not get to the seat of the fire until it has taken hold. Am I really going to hang about trying to calculate if the CO2 bottle is capable of tackling a fire, which might be behind a door, which I can't see?

[Brian]

I still get this impression some posters believe folk, during an evacuation, will act rationally...

Not me. Which is why I believe giving people information is important.

 

 

Hence my remark on all exits...any outside exit buys you time...

Agreed. But as I said above, what about doors that don't lead outside?

 

 

People are still not drawing a distinction between the two uses of a building.

 

My position is still that in #61