paulears Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I think that was just in the days before mic splits and two mics was the way a concert could be recorded/broadcast. The BBC had a mic that would often have a windshield on the socket - not sure what it was, possibly a calrec????? So both still facing the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryNattrass Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 No Paul that is a shure unidyne for the PA and an AKG 224 for recording the show! The 224 is like the 202 and has a capsule at either end so you have to fit two foam wind shields onto it!BTW the 224 and the 202 are rarely used these days as they had inherent problems for a lot of applications but you do see the 202 on the PM's lecturn in the houses of parliament.I had a 224 and it was a bloody horrible mic so it went in the bin as a SM58 or 57 is a lot nicer sounding! P.S AKG did a special wind gag that had a hole all the way through it and the 224 was a stock news mic in the60's & 70's and totally useless as a vocal mic as it was meant for news reporters or conferences, it was replaced by the RE50 or EV 635a http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=akg+224&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=FACAA0C3F6745917BD0ABFDA0FDBF084B74488B9&selectedIndex=9the back capsule was there to lower the proximity effect but it just sounded dreadful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 the back capsule was there to lower the proximity effect but it just sounded dreadful The info here says it's a two way system with separate capsules for high & low frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alistermorton Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 the back capsule was there to lower the proximity effect but it just sounded dreadful The info here says it's a two way system with separate capsules for high & low frequencies. "Due to a long low frequency sound path, the proximity effect is completely absent". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Excellent! My old 202 was pretty radio friendly, but I never knew there was an other two capsule variant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I have both the 202 (with a metal grille around the base) and the slightly smaller 222 (all black body) as curios for demonstrating proximity issues. As far as I remember, the two mics in the Commons are D222s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Wow, looks like I kicked up a bit of debate! I was indeed referring to two cardioid mics pointing the same way, a few inches apart so that the ambient sound would be as similar as possible, but the second mic would receive as little as possible of the wanted signal. After taking the difference, the resulting signal would be the difference between the received ambience, and the wanted signal minus the bleed of the wanted signal into the second mic. Overall, there should be a good reduction in unwanted noise. This was used in the Grateful Dead setup.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-E_Ql_0gIglQ/ThpBGM5qK3I/AAAAAAAABys/5QuPqDrNRN4/s1600/Dead+Wall+mics.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryNattrass Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Well I would take anything the Grateful Dead did sound wise with a pinch of salt, try it yourself and see what happens when you take two cardioid mics sum the signal and anti phase one of them!I still suspect that like their PA system there were seperate feeds for main PA and monitors but other acid heads might know better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 There is a whole AES paper on the use of differential mics in the Grateful Dead setup, and they had no monitors, or even backline. Just one huge stack per muso. They can work, but like most things, are a tool for a job. The wrong tool will either make the job harder or make it impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mervaka Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Well I would take anything the Grateful Dead did sound wise with a pinch of salt, try it yourself and see what happens when you take two cardioid mics sum the signal and anti phase one of them!I still suspect that like their PA system there were seperate feeds for main PA and monitors but other acid heads might know better? No, they were definitely differential microphone setups. Go and do some reading up on the technique. As you've suggested, try it for yourself and see! Edited to add quotation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Back to a slightly more conventional response... +1 for the OM7 in this instance... however can I also make sure that you have already tried re-arranging the stage so the vocalist is off centre, so their mic isn't pointing at the drum kit. Also, remember that drum screens provide sound redirection, not sound reduction. It's only when combined with a load of absorbant foam (or acoustic drape) that they become a useful tool. Aside from that (and draping the venue) there aren't really many other things you can do at your end - apart of course from using a differential microphone setup B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryNattrass Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 OKwill read up on it and once I score good acid I am sure it will sound great, if it was such a good technique shurely it would now be industry standard and we would be hailing the AKG 224 as the best mic in the world but maybe a couple of Enterbray side fills kicking out 2k each would make the drummer tone down a bit? http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Never heard of anti phasing being used in PA applications Compared to what else was available at the time, the wall of sound was pretty stunning. Each instrument had its own array, and the height of each array meant it acted as a line source - years before L'Acoustics - so the sound carried much further than other systems. The instrument per stack approach minimised intermodulation distortion, but also served as that musician's foldback (there was no separate monitor system) - hence the very real need to keep the substantial levels from the wall of speakers out of the vocal mics. These mics were indeed a differential design with two condenser capsules spaced apart. There are a number of mics which provide noise cancellation, but usually instead of the dual capsule approach, this is achieved by carefully spacing the diaphragm between the front grill and the rear port so as to achieve maximum pressure gradient for sound sources placed right next to the grille and reasonable cancellation for sounds that present equal pressure to both front and rear ports. The AKG D58E talkback mic, the Crown headset that Mac linked to, and many of the communications "fist mics" use this technique. Phase cancellation is the basis of most microphone polar patterns beyond simple pressure operated and open pressure gradient designs. If we consider the addition of a delayed rear port to a pressure operation capsule in order to achieve a cardioid response, we can quite honestly say that "anti phasing" is used in almost every single PA system on the planet. I'd suggest it is ubiquitous ;-) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Interestingly enough, not-putting-everything-through-one-PA gets rediscovered every few years; Martin Levan in the 1980s, and Dave Rat in 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 And musical theatre have been doing it for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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