A better way to freight shows...?

[andy_s]

It's worth noting that the "not for profit or reward" is by no means cut and dried...

 

here's a quote from an email I had from VOSA responding to a query about occasional hire of 7.5tonne vehicles: (what we hoped to do was hire a large wagon to move bits of set and kit from our store to the theatre and back maybe two or three times a year - we have a couple of people with pre '97 licences and 7.5tonne driving experience)

 

I note from your website detailed below that you operate as a charity. There are some exemptions to goods vehicle operator licensing, although charities or 'not for profit' organisations are not necessarily exempt.

 

Having seeked advice from our policy section, the view that has been provided for similar queries has been that where the charity/not for profit organisation can demonstrate that it is not operating as a 'business', then it would not need to hold an operator’s licence, but the burden of proof rests with that charity and it is necessary to take in to consideration all of the charity's activities and not just the transport element. In doing so, it is necessary to consider whether or not the charity is being run on a commercial basis, for example are there any paid employees such as drivers, managerial or administrative staff. Where, this is the case, it may be considered that the charity is being run on a commercial basis, therefore it would require an operator’s licence.

 

Whether or not an organisation is being run on the lines of a trade or business is ultimately a legal matter and it is therefore difficult for us to advise directly.

 

For your information, there are 3 types of goods vehicle operator's licence, these are;

 

Restricted allows you to carry your own goods in the course of your trade or business.

 

A standard national licence allows you to carry your own goods in Great Britain, AND to carry goods for other people for hire or reward in Great Britain.

 

A standard international licence allows you to carry your own goods, and goods for other people for hire or reward, both in Great Britain and on international journeys.

 

Applicants for restricted licences (which would be sufficient for your requirements) are required to show evidence of access to £3,100 for the first vehicle and £1,700 for any additional vehicles and they need to demonstrate access over a 28 day period generally by way of bank statements or other original financial evidence. Please note that these figures are not the cost but the amount of money you need to be able to show access to for the operation of the vehicle and running of the business.

 

(....)

 

I must emphasise that the requirement to hold a licence is the view of this Department and is not intended to be a strict interpretation of the law. Only a Court of Law is able to give a legally definitive interpretation. If you are in any doubt about your position you should seek your own independent legal advice.

 

so as we could be ( by their definition of having paid employees) a commercial operation, we took it no further. We thought it not worth the expense of seeking a legal opinion to propose an alternative definition of "commercial"...

 

It might be worth noting also that this written opinion was different to advice given by VOSA on the phone...

[ImagineerTom]

Here's the big secret.... nobody knows the rules - not even VOSA or the DVLA. If you're a conventional haulage company then they've more or less got the rules and policies worked out but if you're anything even slightly outside this then it's basically pot-luck as to what rules you'll be bound to. There's a massive ongoing problem with circus/funfair vehicles (which are the ultimate non-standard vehicle) for which there are clearly defined legal exemptions enshrined in law at every level being regularly fined/impounded by VOSA agents out in the field because they "break the rules" and then long court-cases taking place to get it all reversed and nullified. It's reached the point where VOSA won't actually give binding answers to questions about vehicles because the rules are so vague and open to interpretation that even they don't fully understand them and most circus/funfair lorries will have a stack of photocopies of the relevant statutes and laws so that they can provide proof at the roadside.

 

The general consensus has been that if you're non-standard then get a professional written opinion (from a trade body, solicitors etc) and keep a copy of it with the vehicle so you have some evidence to use in a roadside argument, but also always be prepared for a court-case to fight to prove you're complying with the rules at a later stage.

 

The system is a real mess....

[cfmonk]

+ 1 for what Tom said. Ask five different VOSA Inspectors and you'll get five different responses.

 

They seem to struggle to even define "for hire and reward".