DFA Button

[Mixermend]

Might be an urban myth - but the story goes that some big mixers in major studios were fitted with a 'Producers Panel' - with various knobs and switches not connected to anything.

 

Sounds a bit like the bomb detector fraud case currently in the news - but in this case - no lives were lost, or audio enhanced (or degraded).......!

[Ken Coker]

Sounds a bit like the bomb detector fraud case currently in the news -

 

Exactly the allusion I was going to make....

I would have thought that instead of asking us, the OP could set up a fairly simple experiment and gather actual data.......but then, I'm old school.....

 

KC

 

 

 

[sameness]

Might be an urban myth - but the story goes that some big mixers in major studios were fitted with a 'Producers Panel' - with various knobs and switches not connected to anything.

 

Sounds a bit like the bomb detector fraud case currently in the news - but in this case - no lives were lost, or audio enhanced (or degraded).......!

 

Thanks to Cadac

[ferretwrangler]

Ah the ubiquitous DFA

[Bobbsy]

Is there a psychology module on the Audio & Music Production course? My only comment is that the use of the DFA button is proportionally related to the length of the sound check.

 

Perhaps there should be, although not to do with a button to fool the director.

 

However, just as turning an obvious knob will make people think they are hearing a difference, what an audience sees has a huge effect on their perception of sound effects. I used to do a demo for teenagers interested in sound where I'd first show a short video of somebody frying bacon then, after a pause, a video of a rainy day. Both videos had the same sound effect yet the teens would swear blind that one was the sound of frying and the other was rain.

 

Moral of this story is that sound effects are often best when you work with other people...a rain projection from LX, an actor reacting to recoil when you do a gunshot, etc. etc. are all better than effects in isolation.

[Bobbsy]

Another question for my dissertation I admit the last question was worded badly.

When a button (or knob or slider) is pressed not affecting any auditoryparameters do people recognize a change in the sound from your professional experience?

 

Yes...and this affects even professional sound engineers.

 

Have you watched the video I posted in the other thread? It gives examples of exactly this effect as detailed at no less a forum than the Audio Engineering Society (you know...the people for whom AES digital and tons of other things are named).

[MarkPAman]

I seem to remember a long time ago (before tintenet), reading of an experiment where listeners were asked to do an A/B comparison between several sets of speakers, identified by their colour. In reality, all the speakers were identical, but the colour of the cabs altered the way people thought they sounded.

 

I'm pretty sure "Turbosound blue" were though to be louder than the rest.

 

I'd love to read it again.

[alistermorton]

I'm pretty sure "Turbosound blue" were though to be louder than the rest.

 

Sounds like the Kawasaki effect - the green ones are fastest.

 

 

 

[p.k.roberts]

 

 

Have you watched the video I posted in the other thread? It gives examples of exactly this effect as detailed at no less a forum than the Audio Engineering Society (you know...the people for whom AES digital and tons of other things are named).

 

I'm guessing Ben didn't watch it; but I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it, so thanks for posting it.

[BenHeysAudio]

I did watch it and enjoyed it. Thanks

[Brian]

Does using the DFA (Does ###### All) button work...

Yes, undoubtedly (although it's more usually a knob).

 

...or cause conflicts?

That's the bit of the question I struggle with as I don't see 'working' and 'conflict' as being related.

[Brian]

When a button (or knob or slider) is pressed not affecting any auditory parameters do people recognize a change in the sound from your professional experience?

That's not usually how they were/are used.

 

The usual trick, certainly in audio recording studios, would be to change something, even if it was just the monitor level, and then put it back exactly where it was.

 

I have two closely related theories as to why this works...

 

1) 'Audio Fatigue'. After listening to the same snare sound for 12 hours straight while the producer decides on the sound he wants you do lose your reference point and need to do something to reset it. Sometimes it can be that a tea-break is required. Turn it off, walk out of the control room for 5 minutes, have a cuppa and then start again. Even if you've adjusted nothing the sound you get on returning can be 'different' to that you had 5 minutes earlier.

 

2) 'Audio Hysteresis'. You've probably come across controls on equipment where there seems to be a 'dead-band' either side of the current knob position. To get any change you have to turn the knob a noticeable distance. This is often done to reduce the effect of mechanical/electrical noise created in the attached pot making any changes until you really want a change to occur. I believe that human hearing has a similar mechanism. Listen to the same thing for a period of time and after a while you'll start to not notice any differences. It's as if your hearing has an 'acceptance window' where any sounds that falls within it all sound the same and that window gets wider over time. Move that window, even temporarily with a simple change like overall level, and you reset the width of that window to a narrower range enabling yo to hear subtle differences.

 

 

[E2A]

The trick to making DFA work successfully without 'conflict' (your other post) is that the other person needs to believe it and for them not to feel like you're taking the piss.

[Roderick]

I have managed to make a director shut-up about audio levels by placing a ClearCom master station on top of the FX rack explaining that it clarified the sound.

It wasn't actually connected to anything other than power.

 

But I also lit a show where, when the producer complained it was too dark, an additional 48 parcans were rigged.

After the next rehearsal he proclaimed that it already looked a lot better, despite the small fact that none were actually connected to dimmers yet....

 

;)

[paulears]

One of the snags of digital desks is that many buttons actually are accidental DFA buttons. Anybody who has used them has experienced the phenomena. You make a small adjustment to eq, or perhaps a send level, like the result, then move onto the next channel only to discover that the careful adjustment was made on the wrong channel! Yet I'm kind of certain I must have heard the eq or level change, to be able to stop turning the knob? I was actually adjusting the parameters on a totally different channel - and if this was on another layer, I sometimes can't even remember which one it was - so what was my adjustment actually for?

 

The title of this topic was

When a button is pressed not affecting any auditory parameters do peop[\quote]

Can anyone think of a better one, because it is too long and doesn't fit.

 

I can't really see there is any mileage in this topic. Surely it's all to do with context?

 

 

Moderation: Both topics on the same subject are active so starting a new one with a strange title is pointless as comments in both topics are almost identical - I've merged the two!

[Dmills]

I suspect that everybody who has been around a little can recall at least once tweaking an EQ, convincing themselves it helped, only to notice a few minutes later that it was in bypass. You can accidentally tweak a DFA knob and have it work on yourself!

 

Auditory memory in humans is more or less non existent over periods of more then a few seconds (A fact the hifi sales slime are well aware of "This cable needs to be broken in for at least a week..."), but we are very sensitive to level changes (Slightly louder is usually perceived as 'better'), a fact that makes the monitor level control a favorite for tweaking in the studio when you have one of those producers in... It is not DFA because it does change the sound, but just not in a way that matters.

 

We work in an industry that makes its living in large part off illusion, and it seems to me that anyhing that makes the producer happier or the artist less stressed is surely a tool worth having in the box.

 

Still seems like a subject that is a little thin for a dissertation.

 

Regards, Dan.