New speaker system for small church

[haymere]

Indeed, my main workhorse cabinets are Tannoy V12's and I've always thought they sounded lovely. Assuming that for every letter they've added after the initial V (first there was the VX range, now the VXP) there's been an improvement, they're probably still pretty ok! A local receiving house with about 500 seats has a full rig of them and they seem pretty happy with them.

 

My own church sounds to be a similar size to yours. We have a pair of OHM TRS-112 cabinets which seem to do the job ok. Personally I find myself sitting there when I occasionally mix the bigger events we do (I'm not on the usual rota because I'm hardly ever there!) wishing I'd put the V12's up, but it's probably just that I mix on them 99% of the time and know how to get a sound out of them that I like.

 

The Tannoy cabinets also have a nice range of yokes and mounts.

 

Do I guess the VRX cabinets are from SSE? They've got tonnes of the things to get rid of! Well worth talking to somebody in person rather than just taking the website list prices.

 

What's the style of music? We've got Abundant Life Bradford (sorry, Life Bradford now) on our doorsep and their style is significantly more rocky than my own church (which isn't exactly traditional either!). That said, they've also got a couple of hangs of L'Acoustics Kara, so it's a slightly different scale! But it does make a difference knowing.

 

On the Meyer front, we use UPA when we do The Grand in Leeds. It does the job and certainly projects to the back nicely, but I've been reading the comments above with interest and am starting to breathe a sigh of relief that it's not just us who find them a little harsh, especially for doing musical theatre. Short of hanging line arrays though, they're probably the best we can do. It's a funny old theatre for sound!

 

 

Having been involved in church sound for over twenty years including installing and as a secular sound engineer too, I would endorse the Tannoy V series, or have you considered Kling & Freitag, their twelve and 1.5 have a really nice tone which I think would suit your requirement and they are not D&B money. Give Ben Hyman at VME a ring

 

 

[paulears]

I really expected to get shot for suggesting Tannoy - it's good to see that my experience is not just me, but my good experiences shared by others. Flown V15's with the conical coverage worked really well for one problem venue. The latest weird looking wave guide (??) looks a bit odd, but for most uses, would make sense.

[haymere]

I really expected to get shot for suggesting Tannoy - it's good to see that my experience is not just me, but my good experiences shared by others. Flown V15's with the conical coverage worked really well for one problem venue. The latest weird looking wave guide (??) looks a bit odd, but for most uses, would make sense.

 

TBH I would go for V12's as I believe it is always a compromise to go straight from an HF to a 15 and would advocate 15 inch subs but their you go

[dbuckley]

You're clearly not a fan of UPAs, which is fine.

 

Ha! That linked article s one of my more polite offerings on the topic of UPA1s :)

 

"Sonic character" is definitely a matter of personal taste. I prefer cabinets with a bit of "bite" to them, for example I'd be far happier with UPA1s or EV ZX5s rather than Nexo PS15s. Other people will be quite the opposite.

 

Which is exactly the point. I didn't want to wade in with my personal opinion, just to note that these solutions have a totally different character. The UPA1s and anything d&b ever made are at opposite ends of the "biteyness" scale. UPA1s will part your hair, and then rip your head clean off your shoulers, whereas its a struggle for an engineer to get d&b to even get as far as "impolite".

 

Lets remember though that when introduced, and its a long time ago now, the UPA1 was a revolutionary loudspeaker. It was small, loud, of quality, and didn't fall apart when asked to go loud. The fact it still exists shows that Meyer got a lot of things right.

 

I'd also add that the UPA1 is a steller loud effects speaker. Gunshots, screams etc. And I have never heard anything reproduce a chainsaw as accurately as a UPA1.

 

I really expected to get shot for suggesting Tannoy

I've not heard these Tannoys, but dual concentric speakers in general make sense for the spoken word, as they get nearer to the point source that makes for phase consistency and thus intelligibility, so one would think they must be worth an audition.

[Albatross]

I really expected to get shot for suggesting Tannoy -

 

Never! We had Tannoys here for over 10 years, and I recently had the whole system replaced... with Tannoys.

I do get odd looks from incoming shows that expect to see something, or anything, else... then they hear the system :D

 

Tannoy are remarkably under-rated, at least here in Oz!!

[AndyEmery]

So I have had a private message suggesting the following but wanted to open it to the group, thoughts please, I have never heard these myself:

 

Mackie HDA 1200W Active speaker

Mackie HD1801 18 Active Sub Woofer

 

Looking around 4 tops and 2 subs would be around £8k

[haymere]

So I have had a private message suggesting the following but wanted to open it to the group, thoughts please, I have never heard these myself:

 

Mackie HDA 1200W Active speaker

Mackie HD1801 18 Active Sub Woofer

 

Looking around 4 tops and 2 subs would be around £8k

 

I would have thought you could do better than that, I will have have a cast around to see what I can find.

[Simon Lewis]

Although most of the offerings mentioned so far would probably be "OK" in most venues, I would be looking at what sound pressure level needs to be achieved and then ensuring that the direct and total SPL, coverage and seat to seat variation is acceptable. I'd also look at predicted speech intelligibility and investigate whether acoustic treatment would achieve better improvement than just considering the brand of loudspeaker...

[haymere]

Although most of the offerings mentioned so far would probably be "OK" in most venues, I would be looking at what sound pressure level needs to be achieved and then ensuring that the direct and total SPL, coverage and seat to seat variation is acceptable. I'd also look at predicted speech intelligibility and investigate whether acoustic treatment would achieve better improvement than just considering the brand of loudspeaker...

 

plus one on what Simon has said, I have engineered many small and large churches and I would give more consideration to box placement and building fabric than boxes themselves. I think one pair of good boxes would be better than two pairs of average because then you do not have problems with lobing and good boxes should be as neutral as possible so you have not got an EQ like the waves of the irish sea.

 

 

 

 

Although most of the offerings mentioned so far would probably be "OK" in most venues, I would be looking at what sound pressure level needs to be achieved and then ensuring that the direct and total SPL, coverage and seat to seat variation is acceptable. I'd also look at predicted speech intelligibility and investigate whether acoustic treatment would achieve better improvement than just considering the brand of loudspeaker...

 

plus one on what Simon has said, I have engineered many small and large churches and I would give more consideration to box placement and building fabric than boxes themselves. I think one pair of good boxes would be better than two pairs of average because then you do not have problems with lobing and good boxes should be as neutral as possible so you have not got an EQ like the waves of the irish sea.

 

 

 

 

Having been having a think about this, in my opinion the best box for you would be a Turbosound TQ425, these are horn loaded one and six & half and direct radiating twelve. They would give great vocal clarity but plenty of oooomphhhh and then a couple of pairs of generic 15 or 18 inch subs. The tops are where the money should be spent and the subs could just be standard JBL 2226 or similar 15 inch designs. I saw a pair go for approx £2k including Crown XLS amps a couple of months ago but they are fairly rare. Also Community SLS920's would fit the bill and are quite popular in theatres and american churches. What is the situation as regards flying boxes.

 

 

 

[Jon Wiles]

I've heard good things about these.............stands well back and awaits the barrage http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[haymere]

I've heard good things about these.............stands well back and awaits the barrage http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

I have no problem with Shermann boxes at all, but too big for this situation

 

 

 

[Stuart91]

I've heard good things about these.............stands well back and awaits the barrage http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

I had some out on demo at a show at the weekend. They'd sound great in a room the size of the OPs, arguably overkill. I had absolutely no complaints about the fidelity or "sonic character" of the boxes. Horizontal dispersion is 60 deg which might be a little on the tight side, but it wouldn't be a major problem to add infills.

 

The physical "form factor" is pretty similar to D&B C7, with the noticeable difference that the cabinets are much lighter. We had three subs per side, but were outdoors. Indoors two per side would be fine, or for an install four in a centre cluster could be good.

 

 

I suppose what this thread is showing is that there are plenty speakers out there that "should" do a good job of the room. Which is the "best" will boil down to a combination of the room layout, possible mounting / hanging positions, the desired target volume level, subjective assessments of sound quality, and what's available at a good price, either second hand or new. The next step for the OP is probably to find a friendly install company or designer/consultant who can look at the room and make some more details suggestions.

[Hilary Watts]

For that sort of money, this system, advertised on Concert Systems' used equipment page, will do everything you could possibly want and more besides... you'll find it about 2/3rds of the way down the page.

 

 

No doubt there will be other similar deals available elsewhere. Of course, before spending this sort of money with any supplier that you do not know personally, you would always be well advised to check the supplier's trading address and then go and audition the gear at the supplier's premises and make sure it was in stock and up to the spec you required.

[J Pearce]

Considering your location I would recommend getting in touch with SFL Group, who are experts in both sound and dealing with churches. Buying a solution, potentially including acoustic treatment, and definitely including a bit of maths to work out where is the best location for the speakers, is always better than buying a pile of boxes.

[Matt Riley]

Yep - lots of options available, the hard bit for you is going to be choosing the best value solution with the desired quality. Personally, if it were my church's money I was spending I would start off by seeing if a 2nd hand Nexo PS15 system with 2 tops and at least 2 LS1200 subs, run off a couple of Camco V6s or fp6400s would do the job, as buying a system like that would sound good and give you some serious change from your budget. If it had to be new and shiny I would be looking at some of the L-acoustics stuff out there, which is a really nice solution. SFL are a main L-acoustics dealer so I'm sure would be happy to demo the boxes, or tender for a complete solution.