Movers or LED Pars?

[justanothertechie]

The desk is DMX and we would have roughly 12 channels left after including the generics. The problem is due to the halls set up and their use in this show we'd need to be able to control:

4x on stage

4x front of stage

8x down the sides of the hall

[vinntec]

Vinntec obviously works at a school where the teacher has excellent directorial skills and a full understanding of performance techniques. Frankly, this isn't common. I've visited hundreds of schools and colleges in the UK and NI and perhaps 10 have what I'd term as good technical facilities, and only about 4 of these have production quality that approaches the standard of the real world. It's far more common to have a drama graduate as head of department who has never learned or performed a proper script in their life publicly!

Hang on a minute - who said anything about working in a school - see ALD credits? Although I did retire as a school teacher yesterday :DI have not lit a school show since the 1970s! Peter

 

The desk is DMX and we would have roughly 12 channels left after including the generics. The problem is due to the halls set up and their use in this show we'd need to be able to control:

4x on stage

4x front of stage

8x down the sides of the hall

I assume you are talking LEDs here? Which LED is paired with which other is purely decided by the DMX address it is set to.

 

For example, suppose your LEDs use three channels (beware they might use more) then you could have four groups. You could split these into the four areas listed above so those in the same position change colour together. However, you could just as easily have the LEDs spit throughout as group 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4 etc or something else. EIther way you need to get DMX to the first LED on each position.

 

This is probably not already there, so you might need to connect the desk to a DMX splitter first which has 5 outputs (one to each set of LEDs and one for dimmers) which you would probably hire with the LEDs. Then you can run a single DMX cable to the first LED in each position then daisy chain the remainder off that - remembering to terminate the last one in each chain. Be careful about having the right sort of cable (3 pin or 5 pin DMX cable) and to include the terminators. You should set the LED addresses on the ground and test them before you rig them or you are asking for trouble later if anything doesn't work! But which addresses you put where is up to you.

 

You have channels 37-48 free probably. So first LED group is channel 37, second is 40, third is 43, and fourth is 46 (assuming LEDs need 3 channels) = simples!

 

Peter

[paulears]

Sorry - but we were talking about schools productions, and I assumed you were using your school teacher experience to comment - no offence meant. I'm firmly of the belief that school lighting can be complicated if the person who is going to do it has the skills, experience and interest, but usually lighting is given to the kids who can't sing, dance or act. So few schools even seem to have a technician now - and if they do, the role will be to service the entire school, and isolating just a few hours is impossible, because somebody always needs help connecting the projector cable to their laptop.

[vinntec]

Paul - my last school still has their performing arts tech so he does all the interesting parts of theatre. Students do the operating and set building but that's about all due to H&S. They don't even do the sound levels when using radio mics. No surprise that there are few if any technicians coming forward nowadays interested to carry on or learn the technical side I would love to have some 18 year olds getting to grips with our unusual theatre with a view to putting me out to pasture - but the youngest is currently in his 50s! Our success is that the few young ones who do come to us for experience are either on technical theatre courses or professionals now!

 

In my school days, pre H&S, we did the whole thing ourselves. Design -> rigging --> focusing --> plotting --> operating and the operating side was all manual so needed multiple people. Thyristors were just coming in for those with deep pockets!. Several of those from this time are still doing LX all over the world. This meant a level of commitment able to stretch the school's facilities (which were considerable by today's standards) to the limit and a wish to carry on after leaving school. Sixth Form students were in charge and you started in the third form (year 9) as an apprentice doing all the dirty jobs and worked your way up. If you weren't that interested, you dropped out otherwise you left school already gripped by technical theatre.

 

Oh well... Peter

[paulears]

I had to stand up for the hire supplier, when I heard people slagging off their kit - most of which was either brand new, or nearly new! The expectation was that professional sound and lighting equipment should simply just work. Pushing faders, muting channels, fitting mic packs and mics, using followspots and following a script should be automatic! For the first day, in the band, it was amusing missing the first line of everyone's dialogue, but soon it became a grimace moment. One girl's mic kept cutting out, and the radio receivers were right at the front, where I could see the meters and looking at her, it was clear what was wrong. At the interval, I went to find her, got her to remove the pack from under the tight wide belt pushing it against her sweaty back, and put it somewhere sensible. She was grateful, and I didn't even tell anybody what I'd done.

[vinntec]

Hi Paul - I agree with you. As theatre as become more automated, it is more complex to understand and use so you might need fewer people but more expert ones to get everything out of them. For instance, I get my hands on an ETC ION about every other year so there is no way I can keep my expertise up so have to relearn and plan what I am going to do on the offline editor (and ETC's excellent coffee club notes from the course) beforehand as much as possible. We usually start with a blank stage at 10am and have the technical rehearsal at 7pm! Even with all my experience I can only just about manage this - and there is no way I can teach anyone else while I am doing this... Peter

[norty303]

To take the original idea off in a slightly new direction... I'm reading that you want WOW factor whilst presentees are going up and leaving?

 

How about one or two space flower type lights on the stage?

These could have their shutter simply controlled from a single channel on your existing desk (so no additional cost or complex programming), and would certainly be impressive in that space (although maybe 'too' much... if there is such a thing... ;) )

[ojc123]

I dare say I'll get shot down in flames here but I shan't lose too much sleep.

 

If you are hiring in LED PARs or movers then I'd look at Chamsys MagicQ and a £10 dongle. You could run your generics from your existing desk and run a separate cable to your PARs or movers. (Or run the whole lot from Magic Q if you want.) That'd save some of the dead money from the hire of a desk.

 

I'd also consider buying some LED PARs rather than hiring in. You won't get top quality but you have them for the next time. I have some of the cheap and cheerfuls from CPC. They make good eye candy in a school situation. You might have to compromise on the artistic vision but the thing is you'll still have them after this show and you can learn how to use them. Remember to factor in clamps, DMX cabling and Power supply to your costing. You could get about 10 with cables and clamps and a dongle and still have some change from your £500.

 

This isn't conventional wisdom. It's a different option. It's based on my dislike of hiring kit for school. I hate the rush of fitting it up, the stress of learning a new desk/fixture in no time flat and the hassle of getting it all down again. I get frustrated that we never get the opportunity to experiment with the fixtures because we only get them a day or two before the event and have to return them soon after. I also resent the dead money.

 

It's a school show. Light it reasonably well. My feeling about school shows is that most of the audience won't even notice as long as they can see their offspring/mates. I try to do the best I can but I try to keep that in mind when I start to get precious about it.

 

I suspect if you go for the WOW factor on this budget you will end up disappointed.

 

There you go. Take it or leave it.

[marktownend]

Of course if the OP could put the effort into filling out their profile properly they'd potentially get offers of help/equipment from local Blue Roomers...

[pete LD]

Throwing kit at a typical school show is great for a keen operator or technician, but the teachers, kids and parents won't notice. As long as the lighting doesn't plunge their kids into an unwanted blackout it's fine!

Bit off topic but...

I have been employed to light a school show for the last 8 years and Im fairly sure the contribution of the lighting was noticed! The school in question has no equipment so it is all hired in. Students follow spotting and generally helping. Its a 14 to 18 year old school and there shows standards are amazingly high!

 

Miss Sagon

 

We Will Rock You

 

Slightly more on topic..To the OP Where are you based? there may be better priced options available locally if we all know where you are!

 

Pete

[paulears]

Pete's seen the best. Sadly, it's not at all typical. For every well resourced, competently produced show there are far more that are being put on by the music and drama department, with little time, tiny or no budgets, and no technical expertise at all. Most of the shows are also the vehicle for assessment, and unless they run a dedicated technical pathway, there are no grades in it at all for anything other than the performing - so it doesn't justify spending any money on it for many schools!

[vinntec]

Pete's seen the best. Sadly, it's not at all typical. For every well resourced, competently produced show there are far more that are being put on by the music and drama department, with little time, tiny or no budgets, and no technical expertise at all. Most of the shows are also the vehicle for assessment, and unless they run a dedicated technical pathway, there are no grades in it at all for anything other than the performing - so it doesn't justify spending any money on it for many schools!

As a teacher who retired a week ago today, drama departments tend to own all the performing arts nowadays and they are focused on exam results (and Paul is quite right that although there are modules for technical they are not assessed - at least for the courses my school were doing), .This is the job that the drama departments have been given and what they are assessed for. The fact they had a lighting designer with 45 years experience (ouch!) on the teaching staff was of no interest to them.

 

Before Drama became a subject, in its own right, school productions were much more a whole school affair which had no exams riding on it. Student stage crew and/or school Technology departments might build the set, a science teacher might supervise the student lighting team, another teacher the student stage crew themselves. Usually English teachers would direct an annual Shakespeare and a music teacher the G&S. But as this wasn't a subject, it was all done out of lesson time (lunchtime, after school, weekends) so no-one was being forced to do it. Students who were committed to the technical side suddenly found a teacher climbing up the tower with them to help him/her with the rigging - and in this environment they could be on first name terms because they were out of the classroom in their own time. A few schools still strive to do productions in this way, but probably becoming more rare nowadays.

[fliggygeek]

I wish I had grown up in this format of schooling, when I was in school I was the only student who had the drive to learn how to operate any gear, no teachers understood it so it was up to me to work out how to run the school bands and musicals. I went into IT because I didnt see a career in entertainment, only to start working volunteer for the local colleges helping with their theatrical productions. After being snatched up by a production company, I now devote time into going to schools just to talk to kids at colleges and try to inspire them to look seriously at this industry in order to revive the dying tech classes that run these days. Shows are definitely the vehicle of assessment, but finally the kids can gain certificates in live event and theatre production. Finally I see budgets for gear to fuel these shows and budgets for dedicated teachers.

Pete's seen the best. Sadly, it's not at all typical. For every well resourced, competently produced show there are far more that are being put on by the music and drama department, with little time, tiny or no budgets, and no technical expertise at all. Most of the shows are also the vehicle for assessment, and unless they run a dedicated technical pathway, there are no grades in it at all for anything other than the performing - so it doesn't justify spending any money on it for many schools!

As a teacher who retired a week ago today, drama departments tend to own all the performing arts nowadays and they are focused on exam results (and Paul is quite right that although there are modules for technical they are not assessed - at least for the courses my school were doing), .This is the job that the drama departments have been given and what they are assessed for. The fact they had a lighting designer with 45 years experience (ouch!) on the teaching staff was of no interest to them.

 

Before Drama became a subject, in its own right, school productions were much more a whole school affair which had no exams riding on it. Student stage crew and/or school Technology departments might build the set, a science teacher might supervise the student lighting team, another teacher the student stage crew themselves. Usually English teachers would direct an annual Shakespeare and a music teacher the G&S. But as this wasn't a subject, it was all done out of lesson time (lunchtime, after school, weekends) so no-one was being forced to do it. Students who were committed to the technical side suddenly found a teacher climbing up the tower with them to help him/her with the rigging - and in this environment they could be on first name terms because they were out of the classroom in their own time. A few schools still strive to do productions in this way, but probably becoming more rare nowadays.

[Just Some Bloke]

I agree with everyone who says 2 movers or a few LED pars won't give you the WOW factor. So why are you only thinking about the latest technology? When they invented the pen they didn't ditch the pencil!

 

12 free channels of dimmers and £190 + £100(?) you would have been spending on a desk that you now won't need, would easily give you 24 ACLs and a hazer. Carefully positioned to give you, say 6 fans of 4 lanterns each could really give you bang for your buck. You'd get extension leads, floor stands, splitters and some small change thrown in for your money!