The *silent* band

[dbuckley]

Back in the 80s a band I was in practiced in a shed, and from time to time the neighbours would get numpty, and eventually we ended up rehearsing sort-of silent; drums and vocals were there, but keys, bass and guitars all silent. It was just one stereo mix into wired headphones. A long way away from what is possible today, but being able to rehearse more than made up for the compromise.

 

Speaking of compromise; a lot of making a band sound great is about compromising the sounds of instruments; the perfect bass sound, the perfect kit sound, the perfect guitar sound might end up making a overall mess, whereas sub-optimal individual instrument sounds end up with a wonderful mix.

 

Glad OIP is finding modellers "acceptable"; they may not be perfect, but for the sorts of gigs that Blue Roomers play, they are a great tool to get a great band sound.

 

Worth mentioning that some "name" guitarists (and its always guitarists!) may play in fron of a wall of (insert endorsers name here) cabinets and amps, but behind that wall is their chosen amp, and that is the one with the mic in front of it that you hear through the PA...

[OneEng]

Well, at rehearsal anyway.

 

Electronic drums (Roland V Drum), Di'd bass, keys, guitar via a Line 6 POD, everything monitored in-ears via our P16 system. Only the vocals making any noise.

 

Actually, it was very successful and nice to be able to set your volume at *any* level comfortable.

 

Here's a question though.... Bassist thinks we should try it "with a PA" in case we don't sound like we think we do. I can see just about where he's coming from but I'm more inclined to say that as we can actually hear properly both ourselves and each other that the playing *must* therefore be better so we should sound better whatever. Plus when you're gigging with someone else's in house PA (our usual scenario) you're completely at their mercy. Providing all the sound sources are good quality and the playing is tight and competent surely that's it, cracked, job done?

 

I've heard this type of comment from bass players before, they like to think they have some shaping control over their sound fiddling endlessly with the EQ on their Ashdown's but in reality they are nearly always DI'd pre-EQ so FOH has ultimate control over the bass sound. Guitars of course are slightly different as overdrive and effects pedals etc play such a large part in creating the sound.

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Regards

 

My band is "nearly" silent. Roland vDrums, 2 guitar cabs pointed to the rear of the stage and surrounded by plexiglass shields, bass cab at low volume ... all IEM's.

 

I have tried the "completely silent" approach, but it has a few issues:

 

1. If the stage is wide or just big, the space between the speakers close to the stage is too quiet. Center fill's might fix this, but we don't typically use them.
2. Say what you want about the crying of lead players, they are right about needing SOME stage volume. With none at all, the action of the strings simply isn't there and you can't get any sustain to speak of without it.
3. What you hear in your IEM's is NOT what a good top over sub FOH speaker setup is going to put out. The frequency response of the IEM buds is going to be nothing like your FOH speakers. You have to mix what you hear out front, not what is in your IEM. While I include the FOH L/R in my IEM system (I can actually press a button and get just the L/R main output and then press it again to get my custom mix back), even that is not what it sounds like out front.

The new digital mixers all pretty much have the ability to record your instruments multi-track, then play the tracks back into your mixer and allow you to mix after the fact. This is by far the best way to mix from stage that I have ever encountered. It works particularly good if your stage volume has little overall effect to your sound. This is also why I am getting an X32 Rack myself ;)

 

 

[paulears]

Totally agree, but isn't the point that the FOH sound is usually what the band never hear anyway. Our soundman is the band's old bass player and he's amazed at how the songs he knows so well sound very different out front, and he has to work very hard to make it sound as it should, rather than how he's always heard it on stage. Most 'live' recordings are compromised to a degree, and get at the very least, re-eq'd and balanced in a studio to fit the sound required. Live we can take liberties, and exploit mega sub bass if we wish, or have cymbals eq'd to slice your head off. I suppose the guitar decision is actually very similar to a drummer going electronic. It's not the same, but for some drummers, the things they lose are made up for by the benefits. Sure - If you are doing Parisian Walkways, you're not going to be able to get the infinite sustain needed to hold that one note for long enough for the band to have a cuppa - but you can get the incredible range of tones modern floor boards can produce, that the amp/mic combination can't reproduce.

 

One big issue that needs courage in going silent is trust. It's a leap of faith to remove the safety blanket of loudspeakers. My move to IEMs scared me a little when you'd move just a tad and in your ears, it would go 'phut'. Oh no - a spot on the stage you mustn't go to - then another phut, and the concern something's gone wrong. What if it cuts out and I can't hear? Do I pull the headphones out and cope? Panic - I've gone silent, and if I pull them out, there's nothing to hear? Panic more?

 

I wonder if the silent stage approach is just too scary for some people to go to straight away. My guitarist with his amp cranked up, his guitar in his monitors too, then on the edge ringing from his vocal mic all making the area around him very hot. Is it expecting too much to replace all this with a pair of headphones? Eggs and basket? All the very good reasons for NOT doing it to do with feel and tone, could just be a safety blanket? I really don't know!

[BigYinUK]

Couple of great points on those last 3 posts.

 

Yup, FOH sound is what the band never hears. IMO you can do naff all about it most of the time anyway so I just leave it to our engineer who has a good ear and trust him to do a good job. The feedback we get back from the audience is always great so we're happy.

 

Specific to my new modeller (HD500X) through earphones v. what it'll sound like through a PA is something I do need to think about. I have found that in the past on various modellers, patches I've so carefully created end up sounding terrible through different speakers so there might be some mileage in popping into our local theater which has an RCF Pro PA and seeing what they sound like cranked up through FOH.

 

The guitar feedback thing is something I've agonised about but tbh it hasn't been a real issue. I think I've mentioned before that there's a couple of solos that need the feedback and I've found that moving to the front of the stage so the sound from FOH is picked up by the guitar works for me. Might not in all circumstances but I'll trade that for being able to hear.

 

The trust issue - It may amuse some to hear that my IEMS packed up right at the start of our last gig. My wonderful guitar+earphones cable failed on the first number. A moment of real worry then I grabbed the engineers phones, plugged them in to my P16 and away I went. Looked a dork probably but we got through the gig :)

 

Regarding my new Pod HD500X, its pretty good actually. Much, much better than my old generation 1 Pocket Pod and my Flextone II modelling amp. The amp models sound more like the real thing now than a fuzz box which I found with Line6's older kit.

[BoogieBear]

Just done our first silent stage gig with Wheatus (Teenage Dirtbag) We had a capacity audience of 450 on the night and their FOH engineer Mike Doyle had the system singing nicely. It was a great gig but one thing you will need to remember that may or may not be obvious is that the PA system has to work really hard to obtain good levels in the hall and without the assistance of two or three 100w Mashall stacks and 'Animal' on the double bass drum kit!

 

The technical rider asked for 10w per person per side and as a minimum 4Kw per side (so in our case it would require a 9Kw PA)

 

I really enjoyed the experience and would love to do more gigs like this because you have so much better control of the mix

 

Bring 'em on...

[johnny-t-goode]

johnny - Which Line6 board have you got?

 

I've just bought a POD HD500X board, it arrives tomorrow. Hopefully it'll allow me to operate completely amp-less.

 

We've done 2 gigs "silent stage" and my honest opinion was that it made no difference to how the gig felt, the big difference was that I was able to hear everything properly and my ears weren't ringing at the end of the gig :)

 

A lot of the problems loud amps on stage cause tend to disappear anyway on a large stage. A few years ago I did a local festival and it was a huge stage - My Marshall combo looked like a sandwich box at the back of the stage and I could hardly hear it, really needed the foldback under those circumstances.

 

POD XT Live, had it for a couple of years and used it loads in recording/practice, never in anger though :-)

[BigYinUK]

I'm sure guitar tone purists will rag me for saying this but imo the HD500X has some really quite usable sounds in it and boy does it cut down the amount of kit I'm needing to take with me. I guess for very guitar oriented music a really nice valve amp would be ideal but for what we do atm in both my bands I'm pretty sure the Line6 will do the job nicely, so only drums on stage making any noise now. Our sound engineer has already commented that it was much easier to get a clean mix without guitar and bass amps bleeding through all the mics.

 

Personally, I'm loving using the in-ears on stage - much better monitor mix for me obviously and nice to be able to set the level to exactly what I'm comfortable with.

 

BTW Just bought a second hand Audio Technica M2 for my in-ears - not perfect but pretty good tbh and a bargain at under £300.

[Thomas1987]

Just done our first silent stage gig with Wheatus (Teenage Dirtbag) We had a capacity audience of 450 on the night and their FOH engineer Mike Doyle had the system singing nicely. It was a great gig but one thing you will need to remember that may or may not be obvious is that the PA system has to work really hard to obtain good levels in the hall and without the assistance of two or three 100w Mashall stacks and 'Animal' on the double bass drum kit!

 

The technical rider asked for 10w per person per side and as a minimum 4Kw per side (so in our case it would require a 9Kw PA)

 

I really enjoyed the experience and would love to do more gigs like this because you have so much better control of the mix

 

Bring 'em on...

 

Haha, yes, that was who I had mine with too. It was quite interesting really; due to being in a clubnight, I was doing lighting from side of stage, and the stage did feel very very odd without the normal noise.

 

But, an incredibly refined band who've obviously spent years honing their gigging technique. Sounded great out front (as you say, PA was earning its money that night). If only all bands turned up with their 16 channels on a nicely labelled loom, straight into house stage box....

[BoogieBear]

I really wish more bands/artists would take a look at this way of working and perhaps then they would realize how much better they would sound with a silent or at least much quieter stage and well controlled monitoring

 

It was a real pleasure having Wheatus on the stage and I look forward to the promised return

 

Cheers

Anton

[ojc123]

I'm sure guitar tone purists will rag me for saying this but imo the HD500X has some really quite usable sounds in it and boy does it cut down the amount of kit I'm needing to take with me.

 

I love my Mesa Mk1 and can get the sound I want at a fairly low level if needed. I'm a bit dyed in the wool to change now. If I was gigging more regularly then I'd look at the option; it must be easier than carrying a serious amp about. However, that's nothing to do with what I'm thinking.

 

I work in a school. We have regular gigs where student bands come on stage, do their song/s and clear off ready for the next one. For example, gig next week with eight bands in a one hour lunchtime concert. Some are working locally and are quite professional about it. Some are 13-year-olds doing their first gigs; they are usually clueless. Currently we're often battling to keep the less experienced guitarists from turning up the volume and overwhelming everything from the backline.

 

Currently we use a Laney and my Mesa (under strict supervision) for guitars. Bass and Keyboards are DI'd and generally speaking work ok.

 

Now, I'm wondering about these POD things. Some of the kids have multiFX pedals but I've never bothered too much about them. Most kids tend to set them up to sound like something made by Black & Decker.

 

There's a rackmount version (other suppliers are available.) Am I right in thinking that I could get the kids in for what passes for a soundcheck, get them to dial in the sound they want (usually "wasp in a bottle" or "racoon farting in a Nissen hut"), save the sound then just get the sound op to bring up the sound when the band comes on. I'm not asking if Carlos Santana would be happy with this sound, just if this would be possible and sound ok? My purpose would be to give the inexperienced students a cleaner monitor and FoH mix. Monitoring would be wedges at present because in-ears are not really that practical for so many acts with inexperienced players and operators.

[J Pearce]

We often do our music shows with a fairly quiet stage, electric drums, guitars on pods or the rather nice Roland cube amps. Using the pods can give us quicker changeovers as each guitarist can program their tone and just recall it with a button press, rather than having to fiddle with the amp finely adjusting it while checking.

[ojc123]

Sounds the way forward. I'll have to have a go on a borrowed POD and see if other tones beyond 'Lawn Mower' and 'Food Processor' are available. I assume they must be. It'll be real drums though.

[BigYinUK]

My experience of the Line 6 "modelling" devices is that the new(er) "HD" versions are much much more accurate models than the older kit which is not a real surprise given how quickly technology advances.

 

One "mistake" I think people make is running PODs as an effect board into a guitar amp, IMO it doesn't work at all well. The non linear frequency response of a typical guitar amp exaggerates the harshness of the digital models and you end up sounding horrible. Line 6's amp models seem to be designed to run best straight into a PA or another system with a flat frequency response or into the desk in a studio.

 

Line 6's solution to this is their DT series valve / modelling amps which look promising if you must have a guitar amp on stage and the whole thing integrates together and DT amp settings are saved with the POD patches.

 

I get much better results tbh with the HD500X running into iems/hi-fi/PA. They all sound slightly different and need EQ'ing but sound pretty much OK for the average gig. Better than a wasp in a bottle :)

 

The other thing I've found is that transistor amplification for guitars in general doesn't cut through the rest of the band on stage nearly as well as valve.

 

Running the modeller straight into the PA overcomes this of course.

 

I came across a couple of other modellers in my quest, the "Eleven Rack" and the "Kempler Profiling Amplifier" both very good quality sounds but 3 or 4 times the price of a POD HD500X plus, for stage use, you need a controller further adding to the price.

[ojc123]

Thanks for that. I'll visit the local guitar shop and have a go on some of these things. It's one of our ex-cons who runs it and he's quite helpful.

[paulears]

I had a Behringher V-amp Pro, and bought a Line 6 Pod XT live to replace it. Apart from the Cat 5 connection to the Line 6 guitar, which is clever and works well, I like the sound of the Behringer better. The Line 6 is a bit harsh to my ears, and the Behringer warmer. I don't use it often enough to love or hate it, but the V-amp seems to have more usable stock sounds. You can tweak both of course, but the Line 6 differences are subtle and the V-amps more realistic I terms of sounding like a real guitar/amp combination?