Church event

[paulears]

I have to admit I'm even more confused now! You're working with a company who do PA hire, who will give you a good deal, so another supplier is a bit pointless. So you are working with people who you simply have to say "I'm playing at XYZ, what do I need and how much is it?" So simple. What is the point getting us suggest things based on a venue we don't know, but your primary supplier does?

 

This sounds very, very strange.

 

For comparison purposes - my own venue is 20m x 50m (isn) and seats 1400 on one level. I have a number of PA systems, and for a couple of years we ran two identical ones, with the speaker arrays directed to cover the rear, and the front - no delays. Ground stacked. If you add up the labels on the amps, then each part of the system has 7600W worth. When I needed one of the systems for something else, we removed one rack and it's speaker system. So the total 'label' Watts went down from 15K down to the 7K. All that was needed was a small prod of the master fader - and we still coped fine with our usual crop of tribute bands and other shows. Not once did we run out of level, in what is a pretty big room.

 

Watts is not really a guide to volume in any real sense.

 

Just talk to your local firm and let them work out what's needed - why get involved?

[sam.spoons]

You might just get your 100-110dB over the whole room, assuming the audience nearest the stage are 2metres back from the speakers and the speakers at the front of the stage (normal procedure) if they are hearing 110dB, those at the back will be hearing around 100dB. You will probably need infill/sidefill boxes (depending on where the audience are located in the space) as well as main FOH but bear in mind these may create issues with reflections off the side walls so run them 6dB or more lower than the main FOH.

 

If the room has no acoustic treatment (curtains/drapes/wall hangings etc) on the side and especially the back walls you'll need to direct the sound into the audience (never a bad thing anyway) rather than straight over their heads by putting the tops high and angled down (most have a facility to do this built into the pole sockets).

 

In theory any of the mainstream top and sub systems (Yamaha DXR, QSC K series, JBL PXR etc) should provide enough level to do what you want though to get the side to side coverage you need I'd guess at one sub and two or three top boxes each side.

 

Re liability insurance, if you can to arrange supervision by a responsible person in the church (who will take final responsibility for safe rigging of the gear etc) the church's liability insurance should cover you, but definitely check before throwing up loads of speaker in places where they can fall on people http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif

 

 

 

yeah liability insurance church does have they will be a person there and I have made the venue provide railings to protect band and equipment

 

yes I was going to put fills down the side of the room to give that sound more rounded throughout the whole room and drapes are being put up also so everything is looking in favour

 

Thankyou

 

:)

 

 

Don't forget if you use remote speakers part way down the room you'll need to delay them and they also need to generate a parallel wave front with the FOH, it won't work to put them, say, 15M from the stage and facing into the room, they need to point in the same direction as the main FOH. It's a big subject (which I am not an authority on) but it's a bad idea to have more than one speaker radiating the same signal into the same area (okay I know one each side of the stage facing inwards does this but everything's a compromise http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif). For your room, side fills next to the mains but facing outwards with the mains pointing inwards (trying to avoid too much overlap of coverage between speakers next to each other) probably would work best. If you have time then experiment a little.

 

OTOH, as paulears says (*+1) why not just ask at work?

[TonyMitchell]

You might just get your 100-110dB over the whole room, assuming the audience nearest the stage are 2metres back from the speakers and the speakers at the front of the stage (normal procedure) if they are hearing 110dB, those at the back will be hearing around 100dB.

 

Sam, please explain how you get 100dB at the back. :(

 

My understanding is, if the speakers are positioned level with the front of the stage, 5m forward from the wall and the 110dB(A) you refer to is measured at the front row, some 2m forward from the front of stage, then those listeners at the back are ~30m away from the source, where the level will be ~86dB.

[Shez]

Outdoors that may well be the case but indoors, all bets are off. Look up "critical distance" for an explanation of why the level doesn't change beyond a certain distance.

[sam.spoons]

Ah, my mistake, sorry, just been doing lots of reading on line arrays http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif and used 3dB per doubling of distance not 6dB as this would be (point source boxes). Anyway, if the front row is 28 metres from the back wall and 2 metres from the speakers the distance at the back is approx 15 times the distance at the front so roughly 3 and a half doublings (2, 4, 8, 16, etc) so 21 dB (very-'ish') or 89dB ish, much closer to your calc than mine, sorry everybody http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

The main problem is the audience area is around 25M front to back x 50M wide so any satellite speakers at the sides will only be audible to the outer few rows and wouldn't help the centre block of seats at all (with the speakers being up to 25 metres from the centre of the space they'd be further away than the main FOH for most of the audience).

 

 

If the front row are 4 metres from the speakers and the speakers either flown or on tall stands and pointing down it may be possible to get closer to the ideal (say 3 metres up of the stage would give a distance of roughly 5 metres to the front row and the back row still near enough to 25 metres further back that would equate to an approximate drop off of say 14dB so 96dB at the back. That'd work for me but you'd still need side fills and possibly a centre fill or two to help the front few rows.

 

Alternatively get a line array http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

 

Outdoors that may well be the case but indoors, all bets are off. Look up "critical distance" for an explanation of why the level doesn't change beyond a certain distance.

 

Yup, an whole 'nother can of worms http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif though the OP did say drapes will be hung which will reduce the reverb time (and thus increase the 'critical distance')

[Yorkie]

Regardless of the spl required, £200 on FOH PA, Mons and amps for both won't go particularly far for a room of 35x50m. I know you said 300 capacity; are you sure those are the right dimensions?

[bakerboy]

Regardless of the spl required, £200 on FOH PA, Mons and amps for both won't go particularly far for a room of 35x50m. I know you said 300 capacity; are you sure those are the right dimensions?

 

yes I believe so

 

 

 

[Shez]

Are your audience standing, seated theatre style or cabaret? Cabaret would probably just about fill that sized space with 300 but any other format wouldn't even come close. Do you have a scale floor plan? I always find it useful (essential actually) to work out this kind of thing on a scale plan where you can plot coverage accurately.

[bakerboy]

Are your audience standing, seated theatre style or cabaret? Cabaret would probably just about fill that sized space with 300 but any other format wouldn't even come close. Do you have a scale floor plan? I always find it useful (essential actually) to work out this kind of thing on a scale plan where you can plot coverage accurately.

 

it is going to be mixture I believe organises are going to have cabaret and standing and sadly I don't maybe I should

 

 

 

 

 

[paulears]

This is silly! 20m x 50m (as in my own venue) is smaller than yours and holds 1400 seated! When we have 300 people, which is sadly common, it's a little clump at the front. If they are standing then it's an even smaller footprint, because standing people take less space. Your dimensions are screwed up. 300 people in your space could have enough space each for a picnic with each one on their own blanket!

[kerry davies]

You really do need to know the size and layout of venue because 300 people in that space will be clustered around a dance floor area in front of the stage. It would suit about 11/1200 for cabaret leaving room for a bar and stage.

 

I would seriously suggest forgetting about going for power and instead concentrating on quality. A big empty space like that could be quite horrible with a biggish PA pumping out 100/110dB

[Bobbsy]

If I was in the front row and bombarded with 110dB(A)for an hour or two I wouldn't be a happy camper. Death metal fans might enjoy it but I'm less certain a typical church goer wants things that loud.

 

It might be worth reading THIS page from the HSE regarding safe sound levels at events.

 

Also, there's a big disconnect between venue size, audience size and stated budget even if you can get some extra gear for free.

 

Basically, you need to try and "clump" the audience in a single bunch (rather than have them scattered, get your speakers as high as you possibly can then tilt them down towards the centre of the audience. The height/tilt thing minimises the distance differences and at least helps avoid having a lot of your sound bouncing around off hard, parallel walls.

 

Yeah, lots of the advice above is good if you have the time, skill and budget. Otherwise, KISS.

[J Pearce]

Bobbsy - re SPL look at hillsong and others.

[Bobbsy]

The musical style is described in Post 7 as "soft indie" though. You sure as heck don't need 110dB(A) for soft indie--and, although not illegal, that would be exceeding HSE guidelines.

 

Yeah, I'm showing my age but just because gear is available that CAN go that loud doesn't me you always SHOULD. Frankly, I'd be going for nice even coverage (well, as even as the venue and gear allow) somewhere between 95 and 100db(A).

 

Just to put the levels we're talking about into perspective, 110dB is around the level you'd have from a chainsaw at 1 metre. Even 100dB is approximately a jackhammer at 1 metre. Does "soft indie" really need that sort of level?

[Stuart91]

The musical style is described in Post 7 as "soft indie" though. You sure as heck don't need 110dB(A) for soft indie--and, although not illegal, that would be exceeding HSE guidelines.

 

Some of the livelier contemporary worship styles can have quite wide ranging dynamics - I've mixed at events where the peaks may well have approached those sorts of levels towards the front of the audience, but the longer term average on a meter at the desk is more like 85dB(A), and for many of the quieter / more reflective pieces you are only a few dB above the level of the singing.

 

You can see the way the congregation react as the music builds up to a "big chorus", but they would be leaving in droves if they were subjected to a consistent 100+db(A) onslaught for the duration of the evening.

 

As people have said throughout this thread, so much depends on the style of the act, the layout and acoustics of the venue, and the expectations of the audience. But if the OP is unsure of any of that, I'd be overspeccing the gear required, rather than running the risk of underspeccing and struggling.