Augmenting a PA

[S&L]

can I just pick up on a couple of the mixing and mic'ing tips and ask what others think?

I do work with these sorts of bands and would generally use 2 subs, 2 tops in a venue of say 100 to 200. (bars and the like) - but everything would go through the desk

Sam suggested low cut on everything. I wonder if everyone else would take a similar approach - I would normally only low cut vocals unless I was hearing a lot of bottom end I didn't want on a guitar - but vocals only would be my default and I certainly would never low cut keyboards unless I had to. I'm not contradicting Sam - just asking how others would approach this?

The op wouldn't mic the kick but this is what the audience is dancing to. I would pretty much always mic the bass drum, even in a 50 capacity bar. in order of things on a drum kit that don't cut through I would mic bass drum first, then snare which is always present in a small venue but can get lost (again this is what people dance to) and then high hat - cymbals pretty much always cut through on their own even in a 200 plus venue playing this sort of music and toms are usually audible too.

Hypersound wouldn't put the sax through the PA. again I would always close mic the sax and have done since I was playing in bands in my youth - it gets lost and stepped over by keys and guitar otherwise and sounds thin. close mic'ing a sax gives a big fat round tone and most sax players have better mic technique (knowing when to step back) than most singers.

only the OP knows his own venues and band but as a general rule working in a 100 capacity bar would you..

1. low cut everything including keys?

2. not mic the bass drum and still get 'em dancing?

3. not mic the saxophone(s)?

 

re the desk, a small desk like that is perfect for self mixing on stage and unless reverb is an issue (hate the reverb sounds on the older behri desks) there probably isn't a great audio benefit in swapping unless you can step up to say an allen & heath mix wiz.

with 9 pieces there would be benefit however in holding your hand up and admitting that it's getting to be too difficult to mix from stage. sooner or later most larger bands playing the bar circuits end up getting a weekend warrior like myself to mix them from out front. it's easy enough to sort a 4 piece out from the stage but quite a challenge to do that with 9 bodies. If you add in bass and drums, assuming 3 channels for drums as above and probably two keyboard surfaces you are probably looking at 15 inputs.

[sam.spoons]

+1 to miking everything (you can always mute it) and +1 to the desk being fine (probably)

Just to clarify my approach HPF use (others may differ). I would advocate HPF on everything miked except kick and possibly low pitched toms. The purpose of this is to keep the kick and bass from entering the system at multiple points (i.e. the vocal mics, other instrument mics and so on). DI'd instruments don't benefit in the same way but it can help to HPF DI'd keys to keep the low rumble some keyboard players (notably piano players who are used to working solo) produce. The bass has the harmonic low end covered and keys in a soul or rock context don't usually need to contain any sub bass. HPF on vocals can go surprisingly high (given sweep able HPFs) before the effects on the tone of a voice is audible, I used 135Hz HPF on a female vocal last gig and received several favourable comments regarding the vocal sound. Gates are the other line of defence against 'stage wash' but as the OP does not have them I'll leave them for another day.

 

HTH

[Tomu2]

Thanks for everybodies input , it is greatly appreciated , and I take onboard the advice .

 

Think I will use the low cut as suggested and see if this makes a difference .

 

the band are in desk as follows .

 

Channel 1-4 is vocals , channel 5 is guitar , channel 6 and 7 free , channel 8 keyboards , channel 9/10 line in is acoustic guitar , channel 11/12 line in is tenor sax , channel13/14 line in is alto sax , channel 15/16 line in is used for I pod .

 

Gains are set at about 12,o clock on channels 1-9

 

Thanks all :)

 

 

 

[sam.spoons]

Thanks for everybodies input , it is greatly appreciated , and I take onboard the advice .

 

Think I will use the low cut as suggested and see if this makes a difference .

 

the band are in desk as follows .

 

Channel 1-4 is vocals , channel 5 is guitar , channel 6 and 7 free , channel 8 keyboards , channel 9/10 line in is acoustic guitar , channel 11/12 line in is tenor sax , channel13/14 line in is alto sax , channel 15/16 line in is used for I pod .

 

Gains are set at about 12,o clock on channels 1-9

 

Thanks all :)

 

 

 

 

I'm asumng the desk is either Xenyx 2222FX or Xenyx2222USB

 

I guess you haven't been using the HPFs so far?

 

 

How do you get the sax's into the line inputs (mics?)? I'd use 6, 7 and 8 for saxes and kick (assuming all miked) and HPF all but the kick, keys can go into a line input as can bass and acoustic guitar (though the acoustic would be better with some High Pass applied too, so take all the bass off as next best option). You really need more mic inputs but I know where you're coming from (OTOH if you can afford more FOH speakers, maybe a better desk with more inputs os the way to go after all).

 

Gains need setting to suit the source, it would be unusual for them all to be the same (on a typical band gig they would vary from around +10dB to +40dB on my Mackie DL1608), how do you go about setting them (the user manual can be of some help here) BTW channel 9 doesn't appear to have a gain control.

[S&L]

Thanks for everybodies input , it is greatly appreciated , and I take onboard the advice .

 

Think I will use the low cut as suggested and see if this makes a difference .

 

the band are in desk as follows .

 

Channel 1-4 is vocals , channel 5 is guitar , channel 6 and 7 free , channel 8 keyboards , channel 9/10 line in is acoustic guitar , channel 11/12 line in is tenor sax , channel13/14 line in is alto sax , channel 15/16 line in is used for I pod .

 

Gains are set at about 12,o clock on channels 1-9

 

Thanks all :)

 

 

 

 

that rings an alarm bell. you should be checking the gain for each channel via pfl/solo button, then adjusting until the meter reads around zero - around the half way point on the led's for your mixer.

are you doing this?

 

edit to add Sam beat me to it.

[Tomu2]

Thanks for everybodies input , it is greatly appreciated , and I take onboard the advice .

 

Think I will use the low cut as suggested and see if this makes a difference .

 

the band are in desk as follows .

 

Channel 1-4 is vocals , channel 5 is guitar , channel 6 and 7 free , channel 8 keyboards , channel 9/10 line in is acoustic guitar , channel 11/12 line in is tenor sax , channel13/14 line in is alto sax , channel 15/16 line in is used for I pod .

 

Gains are set at about 12,o clock on channels 1-9

 

Thanks all :)

 

Sorry , I meant to say channel 1-8 .

I was told that gains should be around 12,oclock , clearly this is wrong .

I will also change sax inputs as suggested .

And , no , I aint been using the low cut function , but I will now .

So basically the speakers I have are fine to use with such a large band , yes :)

 

 

 

 

 

I'm asumng the desk is either Xenyx 2222FX or Xenyx2222USB

 

I guess you haven't been using the HPFs so far?

 

 

How do you get the sax's into the line inputs (mics?)? I'd use 6, 7 and 8 for saxes and kick (assuming all miked) and HPF all but the kick, keys can go into a line input as can bass and acoustic guitar (though the acoustic would be better with some High Pass applied too, so take all the bass off as next best option). You really need more mic inputs but I know where you're coming from (OTOH if you can afford more FOH speakers, maybe a better desk with more inputs os the way to go after all).

 

Gains need setting to suit the source, it would be unusual for them all to be the same (on a typical band gig they would vary from around +10dB to +40dB on my Mackie DL1608), how do you go about setting them (the user manual can be of some help here) BTW channel 9 doesn't appear to have a gain control.

 

I have learnt a lot from this thread , thanks to everyone who has given advice , I appreciate it :)

[sam.spoons]

So basically the speakers I have are fine to use with such a large band , yes :)

 

I have learnt a lot from this thread , thanks to everyone who has given advice , I appreciate it :)

 

The speakers you have should be fine, the size of the band is not really an issue just the more complex the mix the more important it is to get everything in it eq'd and balanced right. if you learn to set the gains correctly, use HPFs in the appropriate places and eq the instruments so they each have some space in the mix you should get better results (top tip, reducing the low mids is usually a good start as this is where the muddiness/clutter seems to build up with more instruments). Better speakers will sound better but yours are decent boxes, the time to change speakers is when it's not loud enough http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif.

 

Good luck