Advice to rejuvenate a community theatre

[top-cat]

I still think that moving heads are a reasonable idea for creating a lot of different looks out of not so many fixtures.

 

I think the Chauvet Legend 412 is a great fixture for delivering very nice rich colours, they're also very bright and quick.

 

IIRC they can be had for about £700 in the UK? 10 across the back of the stage and 2 side washes would give a lot of options on stage. I find with ours once you get a bit of haze up the colours mix really nicely.

 

I do agree on the sentiment of LED PARs but the cost of decent low price LED PARs and decent low cost LED moving washes seems to be drawing ever closer and a small additional investment can yield a good number more options.

[paulears]

Bags of backlight is nice for music, but for a community theatre front light is more (or just as) important, but this is where my noise concerns pop up. Mind you what is certain is that for the budget, you can get lots of LED. I suspect that what you don't really have is a generic lighting plan to service every type of use. Then locations for the new kit might pop out and you could see better what you need v what you can afford. I can see, for example, that top-cat and I clearly are imagining very different ideas of what the place needs, and this is quite understandable. We don't know what your community theatre really is?

[top-cat]

Sorry yeah, when it said 'school / community' my first thought was multi-use, and I find backlight works in a lot of situations so I said that.

 

In any case, my point is more that you can get a lot of LED movers for not much more than a lot of LED PARs, but the options you create by doing so are increased.

[Ynot]

Speaking as one who runs a similar sized (250 seat house) venue which does pretty much what the OP lists in their repertoire every year, I'd tend heavily towards the fixed head variety if you're going for LEDs. We invested (with the help of a 10K grant) a few years back in LEDs to compliment our existing tungsten rig. We've been happy with what we purchased, on the whole, and went for 3 definite price ranges for the fixtures:

 

 

 

 

ETC Paletta 1 - most expensive, but after a bit of fiddling with lens options and a bit of frost I reckon they've given us a really nice cyc wash.

 

Chauvet Colorado Tri Tour - Use these as side light from 2 verticals each side of stage (with the added spread from mounting S4 PAR lenses in fronto of them, which works surprisingly well).

 

OMNI LEDJ Tri - 2 banks of overheads to give stage colour - ideal for dance shows etc.

 

The first two have very nice dimming curves with no noticeable bottom end drop off. the LEDJs can give a bit steppy performance at the bottom, but not so noticeable as you might think.

 

Also JUST invested in 4 Chauvet SlimPAR 12 RGBA units which so far seem to be close to the Colorados.

 

 

 

 

However, if the majority of your shows DON'T actually need wigglies then DON'T buy them. We hire in as and when they're needed for shows, and the cost for the extra flexibility is then borne by the group using the kit. As a venue, unless you have a great NEED for movers, then save the expense of buying in and use that cash elsewhere on the project.

 

BUT don't be tempted to trash all the old tungsten in favour of shiny LEDs. :)

 

And, of course, don't underestimate the cost of installing the new infrastructure needed to supply hard power and DMX to every bar in the house (as you will inevitably need it there!)

 

As for the desk, I'm afraid I'm another who feels that a theatre's lighting desk should BE a lighting desk, not a PC with some software on it. I would hazard that a huge percentage of those who do run anything like MagicQ won't run it solely as their LX console, and even if it is, there will always be lots of other s/w on there taking up space and memory resource etc.

 

And from what I can see, getting MagicQ with the necessary fader wings, control panels etc takes it close to the cost of a bespoke desk anyway, so if you take it to the logical conclusion, for me it's a no-brainer...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[csg]

Just as a side point regarding the desk / PC wing question - as the owner of a MQ60 I can confirm that all the internal hardware appears to be completely proprietary. Having had various chamsys PC wings running from windows and Mac machines ( all dedicated, not general purpose machines), we have encountered far fewer flitches / anomalies since switching to dedicated desks for most jobs. The cost difference between a maxi-wing set up and a MQ60 is relatively modest as well, and off course should the desk die, a pre-programmed show can be run from a laptop + enttec box or two ( or even better via art net).

[top-cat]

I don't want to come across as being precious about computer based lighting control, but I feel that there has been little in the way of argument as to why a lighting desk is actually better itself. (Maybe its worth another thread?)

 

The arguments that go - the computer will end up full of cack, the computer will crash, the computer cannot dedicate all its power if running other things - these all comes down to how they are set up. You cannot consider the bad configuration of a lighting-dedicated computer as being a failure of the product.

 

Saying that the fact you are able to put other software on the machine is proof that it will end up running slowly because its full of adult movies is like saying that a lighting desk with a large amount of unoccupied surface area is bad because somebody will inevitably put a cup of tea on it and spill it. The poor disciple of the user is not a reflection on the standard of the product.

 

I ran my chamsys system using a bootable USB3 memory stick with mac leopard on it, with everything unnecessary stripped off it. Who can't manage that? But, for interest purposes, I also successfully played modern warfare with the graphics settings up on the mac whilst running 4 universes off the lighting desk including pixel mapped LED and a media server... Bare in mind you can buy a 3ghz machine with 8 gigs of ram now for less than 500 quid...

 

If you choose to run your lighting wing off a rubbish PC full of freeware and dodgy downloads you can't call it bad design...

[timsabre]

If you choose to run your lighting wing off a rubbish PC full of freeware and dodgy downloads you can't call it bad design...

 

But there is a big difference between a lighting console you own and use yourself, and one installed in a community venue which is used by all and sundry.

In the latter situation, a dedicated console is much more likely to be reliable.

[top-cat]

If you choose to run your lighting wing off a rubbish PC full of freeware and dodgy downloads you can't call it bad design...

 

But there is a big difference between a lighting console you own and use yourself, and one installed in a community venue which is used by all and sundry.

In the latter situation, a dedicated console is much more likely to be reliable.

 

Why so? As I've already stated (and Paul agreed) , whoever sets it up has complete control of what other users can and can't access. You wouldn't leave the front door open when you left, why do the same to the computer?

 

Considering that most if not all modern lighting desks run off standard operating systems (ie windows, Linux etc), any permission which can be set on a lighting desk (whether by the manufacturer or the user) can be set on a computer.

 

Update: Well if you ever needed proof the devil exists... I am on a show and my computer based lighting desk just crashed.

[dmxlights]

I have to say Do not have the MQ60 but have a maxi-wing and I get it a very good price of ebay it was about £1,600 for it and I have built a dedicated pc out of a old laptop that the screen is gone on and external touch screen on it and have locked down the os just to allow MagicQ to save show files and for the use to open from a memory stick as in show file only and I have it running in a few places where it has been used by students of the school for school plays and I have been using it this week myself with no problem at all the os and MagicQ are on the hard disk which is solid state and the shows are been saved to a sd card. I have the solid state hard disk is in read only mode and can only written to if I turn off read only mode all setting for MagicQ is on the sd card. I have it setup very much how a console would work.

 

Ok it took time to get it the way I wanted to be also I have battery back up via the laptop that I used and the it boots right to MagicQ in about 30 seconds or less and as other have said about using a wing can be very handy when the pc does not boot as it can be plugged in to another pc or laptop and run the show from that.

[timsabre]

But there is a big difference between a lighting console you own and use yourself, and one installed in a community venue which is used by all and sundry.

In the latter situation, a dedicated console is much more likely to be reliable.

Why so? As I've already stated (and Paul agreed) , whoever sets it up has complete control of what other users can and can't access. You wouldn't leave the front door open when you left, why do the same to the computer?

 

Well... think about it a bit from the point of view of the non-computer-savvy parent from the dance group or whatever who has just been asked to make the lights come on.

 

There are just a lot more things that can go wrong with a PC/wing solution, e.g. Wing USB not plugged in, or not powered up when device boots, or PC not shut down properly on previous use and shows a Windows Restore screen...

 

Don't get me wrong, I think PC wings are a great solution for many situations, just not in a community venue where there may be many uninitiated users. In that situation you can't beat a single black box with faders on the front.

[the kid]

With regards to the desk/s you could easily opt for something simple like a jester ML or TL and have presets and subs, you can programme with it and people can learn the basics. The kids can learn if they want and its not going to blow anyones mind when they do something weird, and the old boy who runs bingo can push up 2 subs and have light on the stage.

 

With regards to the lights the ETC Palettas are good for washing, my old boss bought a bunch for general covers, house presets, comedy washes etc and they have been great. I am hoping to get a demo for a room for next season.

 

We did borrow some auras recently as well, and I am with you, they are nice as a unit to use and the mixing and wash is lovely.

 

While I'm all for digging around and seeing what is available, if you have used the auras, and you like them go for them. Sure see if anyone has anything similar to demo, then decide.

[top-cat]

But there is a big difference between a lighting console you own and use yourself, and one installed in a community venue which is used by all and sundry.

In the latter situation, a dedicated console is much more likely to be reliable.

Why so? As I've already stated (and Paul agreed) , whoever sets it up has complete control of what other users can and can't access. You wouldn't leave the front door open when you left, why do the same to the computer?

 

Well... think about it a bit from the point of view of the non-computer-savvy parent from the dance group or whatever who has just been asked to make the lights come on.

 

 

 

So your argument is that a non tech savvy parent, who probably has a microsoft windows computer at home, is unlikely to be able to operate a computer properly but will have no problem using a lighting desk?

 

That's an interesting thought.

 

Do these community venues not at least have duty technicians? Not necessarily full timers? I can't imagine there's that many places that just leave the kit set up in the corner and let any old folk just come in and help themselves to it, is there? Just wondering.

 

It just fascinates me that so many people are opposing the idea of wings, yet the only argument people seem to be able to come up with is "People are stupid". Besides people being stupid, are there actually any arguments which carry any weight?

[timsabre]

Most community venues do indeed just have a pile of lighting kit in a cupboard somewhere. If you're lucky the guy who unlocks the front door will know how to turn it on.

If you're the person who chose the gear, that makes you the expert, and you will receive phone calls at all hours if it is not very simple to operate.

 

So yes, you need to design a system for operation by stupid people.

[the kid]

But there is a big difference between a lighting console you own and use yourself, and one installed in a community venue which is used by all and sundry.

In the latter situation, a dedicated console is much more likely to be reliable.

Why so? As I've already stated (and Paul agreed) , whoever sets it up has complete control of what other users can and can't access. You wouldn't leave the front door open when you left, why do the same to the computer?

 

Well... think about it a bit from the point of view of the non-computer-savvy parent from the dance group or whatever who has just been asked to make the lights come on.

 

 

 

So your argument is that a non tech savvy parent, who probably has a microsoft windows computer at home, is unlikely to be able to operate a computer properly but will have no problem using a lighting desk?

 

That's an interesting thought.

 

Do these community venues not at least have duty technicians? Not necessarily full timers? I can't imagine there's that many places that just leave the kit set up in the corner and let any old folk just come in and help themselves to it, is there? Just wondering.

 

It just fascinates me that so many people are opposing the idea of wings, yet the only argument people seem to be able to come up with is "People are stupid". Besides people being stupid, are there actually any arguments which carry any weight?

 

A lighting desk much like the simple ones I mentioned above are simple, you can mark them up and job done, and people wont and cant go wrong with them and damage is fixable. A tower or laptop will get fiddled with*, it is a computer, we are not talking about oh a desk is a pc by any other name.

 

I know several amdram venues that are as tim mentions, man opens up the doors and away you go.

 

The best half example I can think, you go in to a carpet factory with the aim of making a red carpet, but there is only black on the bobbins, you have seen your mum change the thread on a sewing machine once a few years ago. There are also lots of pensioners wanting to walk on the red carpet right now if possible.

 

 

 

* OR STOLEN lets not forget that a desk does not look as inviting as a laptop.

[paulears]

I must say that our system running on a rack PC and touch screen with maxi wing seems as uncomputer as you get. We have a windows password which when were up and running is stuck on the screen top, removed when we're shut. You type in the password, and after a few seconds Magicq asks continue show? Prod the screen and it's working. It isn't complicated and many people wouldn't even notice the computer exists.