New Desk from PreSonus

[dosxuk]

there's no reason someone couldn't design a full physical surface, 19" rack sized, with 16+ 100mm faders, loads of knobs and buttons, a touch screen and so on, that communicates wirelessly to a stage rack brain. Clever design could make it easily possible to walk out front with a proper 32+ channel digital desk at the start of the show.

 

The main reason something like that doesn't exist is the sheer cost of development. With an iPad or other tablet a lot of the hard work is done already, so development for the manufacturer is much easier than starting from scratch.

 

The hard work isn't done - when it comes to tablets the hard work is making a UI that is quick, easy and intuitive - and I'd venture that's harder than going "ah, we'll use a red knob for the EQ section pots". When designing a digital surface, the only real hard work is actually working out how to communicate the settings on the surface back to the mixer brain - which still exists as a problem in a fully software defined surface.

 

Plus a 19" sized unit is going to have to sit on a table or something, it certainly won't be handheld. That might be OK for a wedding or corporate show, but could be a liability at many gigs where the beer is flying in the audience.

 

That liability already exists for a vast number of shows and events.

 

My post was prompted by the idea that people wandering around with tablets will replace FOH desks at all but the largest shows and festivals which I assume includes everywhere which already has perfectly usable FOH booths.

 

Yes, tablets are great for when you can't get a desk out front, and you'd otherwise be stuck side of stage. But if I turned up to work a six band show and the normal 32 channel analogue desk with outboard, in it's booth, had been chucked out and an iPad left there for me instead because somebody decided it was "better", I'd probably walk out. I've opted to mix shows side-of-stage before, and yes, a tablet in those circumstances would have been a help, but when talking about replacing FOH desks at all but the biggest events, I just can't see any advantages.

[Stuart91]

The hard work isn't done - when it comes to tablets the hard work is making a UI that is quick, easy and intuitive - and I'd venture that's harder than going "ah, we'll use a red knob for the EQ section pots". When designing a digital surface, the only real hard work is actually working out how to communicate the settings on the surface back to the mixer brain - which still exists as a problem in a fully software defined surface.

 

I was more meaning that the desk manufacturer doesn't have to do anything with the hardware side of things - you've got a touchscreen with an OS and industry standard networking protocols all in a package. Given the economies of scale that Apple, Samsung, and others have, a tablet will work out far cheaper than a bespoke unit designed from scratch by the desk manufacturer. Plus there are a host of other uses for a tablet when you aren't mixing on it.

 

I appreciate that a good UI is not a trivial thing to come up with. But it's a significantly less daunting process than, say, designing a wireless, battery powered unit that has a bunch of moving faders and encoder knobs on it.

[dosxuk]

I appreciate that a good UI is not a trivial thing to come up with. But it's a significantly less daunting process than, say, designing a wireless, battery powered unit that has a bunch of moving faders and encoder knobs on it.

 

Why? It's stuff you can build in your garage these days. And there's plenty of off the shelf motherboard style components that can be used to convert from whatever protocol you use to talk to your components into something that you can stream over wifi.

 

Plus, by designing your own hardware, you're not reliant on the manufacturers of the tablets to not go changing things, like connectors and OS features you rely on.

[OneEng]

I mix my own band from stage with an iPad Mini and an X32 Rack. I also do favors (run sound) from time to time for other local bands or events.

 

I have done this in the past with my MixWiz and outboard setup, and I can conclusively say that there is no comparison. The iPad app and X32 Rack provide a much better experience with way less work .... and take up less space on stage as well.

 

I am sure that lots of guys are going to stick with physical surfaces for some time to come, and the physical console will never completely die out; however, just like stand alone multi-track recorders have been largely replaced by PC based solutions with an inexpensive interface card, I suspect that the majority of small to medium venues will have a tablet control surface in the not-so-distant future.

 

I know of may X32 users (sound company owners) that are moving away from the console to the X32 Rack for more and more venues. It isn't for every venue, but there are a surprising number of venues that they are being used for.

 

If you have to lug your own equipment around, that 11 lb rack mixer is going to be much more appealing than any console ;)

[Shez]

I have done this in the past with my MixWiz and outboard setup, and I can conclusively say that there is no comparison. The iPad app and X32 Rack provide a much better experience with way less work .... and take up less space on stage as well.

I don't think you're really comparing apples with apples here. Many people find that a digital desk is a better experience than an analogue with an outboard rack simply because of it being in one box, being lighter, taking up less space and being able to access everything from one surface rather than running from desk to rack & back.

All other things being equal, given the choice between standing behind a desk with physical controls and standing behind a touchscreen, I'd always go for the real controls. (I do use a tablet with my desk as it happens, but only for walking the house to set up delays, monitor mixes or whatever - I'll always do the majority of mixing at the desk.)

[alistermorton]

I suspect for some time to come there's going to be an "us and them" stand off between the young, just coming through generation for whom it's touchscreens and wifi all the way, and those who can mix in the dark without looking away from the band by touch alone because they know exactly what their surface feels like. They might be labelled "Luddites" by the young blades but there's a lot to be said for the physical interface. Same goes for lighting.

 

You don't look down for the gear stick in your car every gear change, you know where it is and find it by muscle memory and feel. Same for control surfaces (sound and light) in my book.

 

EDIT Sp

[john deans]

If live sound follows the path lighting & studio is taking, then the future will be to have the sound process in the side stage rack with the option of a virtual control surface on a tablet or touch screen computer or some form of control surface /wing that, depending on model / budget, will allow different amounts of physical controls that are mapped onto the audio channels

I could see this being popular in venues such as conference centres where the audio could be controlled by a Creston type integrated system or by a control surface when a sound engineer is available or paid for

 

 

[dosxuk]

If live sound follows the path lighting & studio is taking, then the future will be to have the sound process in the side stage rack with the option of a virtual control surface on a tablet or touch screen computer or some form of control surface /wing that, depending on model / budget, will allow different amounts of physical controls that are mapped onto the audio channels

I could see this being popular in venues such as conference centres where the audio could be controlled by a Creston type integrated system or by a control surface when a sound engineer is available or paid for

 

Not really the future - we're already there. There's quite a few consoles where the actual brain is a separate box to the surface, and can sit side of stage with nothing but a Cat5 to FOH, and the surface optionally replaced by a laptop on events when you don't need the full surface.

[MarkPAman]

Touchscreens? Pah

 

We'll soon be mixing on completely virtual surfaces, seen through clever glasses that read every twitch of the eyeball. Combined with gloves, they will know exactly what you are doing with your fingertips & give tactile feedback.

 

If that sounds too much like sci-fi, remember that 5 years ago, the tablet didn't exist.

[henny]

Touchscreens? Pah

 

We'll soon be mixing on completely virtual surfaces, seen through clever glasses that read every twitch of the eyeball. Combined with gloves, they will know exactly what you are doing with your fingertips & give tactile feedback.

 

If that sounds too much like sci-fi, remember that 5 years ago, the tablet didn't exist.

 

 

A great application of augmented reality would be a Google glass type product that puts floating channel numbers over performers heads on stage

[the kid]

I don't see how that is not going to be annoying when you have a singer + guitar + extra guitars behind them, and a drummer behind them.

 

That snare is a bit loud, now which one is that *waves hands in the air*

[top-cat]

If that sounds too much like sci-fi, remember that 5 years ago, the tablet didn't exist.

 

To be fair, it did. Tablet PCs have been around for ages but not in the slick, easy format you get them in now.

 

http://oldcomputers.net/pics/gridpad-right.jpg

 

 

This is a GRiDPad from the early 90s. And surely some people here had one of these?

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Palmpilot5000_eu.png

 

 

My dad did!

[dbuckley]

Not to mention the fabulous Fujitsu Point series of tablets, which came with Windows 95 pen edition, and optional integrated wireless, from very early part of this century; I still have a few in the garage...

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2694/4221535977_6f371f9fdc_n.jpg

 

Image from Flickr, this tab is running linux :)

[OneEng]

Hey Shez,

 

I hear you. For lots of people, mixing on a physical console is going to be hard to ever get away from. It isn't that I don't agree. I too feel that mixing on a physical surface is preferable from a standpoint of control.

 

Where it breaks down for me (small band operator with occasional PA support for other local bands), is that there is rarely enough space in small to mid sized venues for a 32 channel mix board out front. In many venues, they simply won't allow you to stretch a snake across the room for safety reasons.

 

For mixing from stage (while being part of the band), using an iPad Mini on a bracket attached to my mic stand is like a little piece of heaven compared to moving around on stage to get my fingers on the faders of my old MixWiz.

 

I do agree that there is going to be a generation gap on this discussion, but what I am pointing out is that there is going to be a use model gap as well.

 

For festival sound, larger venues with fixed position for a mixing station, and theater (etc, etc), I can't see anything but a physical console as the main method of mixing. Even for these cases, having a remote capability to handle delays, monitor ring out, etc, etc, is still going to be a must as we go forward.

 

With this particular product, I am wondering how well it will be received since it is entering the market between the less expensive Mackie DL1608, and Behringer X32 Rack (which is only slightly less expensive and sports a basic physical interface to boot).

 

It is a good time to be in the market for a new digital mixer.

[S&L]

Where it breaks down for me (small band operator with occasional PA support for other local bands), is that there is rarely enough space in small to mid sized venues for a 32 channel mix board out front. In many venues, they simply won't allow you to stretch a snake across the room for safety reasons.

 

 

Not so true - see my comment above - tact, diplomacy, co-operation and forward planning. the problem really is that bar bands often don't integrate with an engineer and don't make their bookings in person, planning an engineer's position at time of booking, or at least ahead of gig time - some bar managers are not only receptive but already have experience of this in their establishments - the enlightened ones are fine with it and certainly my straw pole locally suggests around 1 in 20 full bands use someone out front and stage side to mix. yes its a minority sport but its the bands and the money they are paid that are the obstacle far more often than the venue. and it's also worth remembering that (a) bar bands rarely require 32 channel desks (though I do drag my x32 into most bars) so a 16 channel desk in the audience will often be fine and (b) some 32 channel desks only take up a small space (x32 producer).

 

I can't stress here enough that the obstacles are not equipment related but human failures to communicate and co-operate - I can point to getting on for 1000 gigs over the last few years that I have done in 'pubs' with a desk out front. it's only waiting for a wireless desk (not ipad) to remove the last of the objections and then we are just left with engineers that cannot communicate with the house.