BenEdwards Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Was wondering if these are used much. Was doing some lighting with a friend and he said it was doing rock climbing that made him confident on ladders. I used to Rock clime and it has kind of had the opposite effect;). The thing is in climbing it is all about trusting your protection, you are always roped up to something. It got me thinking a cows tail (a rope with carabiner at each end) would would allow a quick clip on to a ladder for safety. I then found out about ladder lanyards. Was wondering if this type of thing was ever used in theatre. I still have my climbing harness. Or would you just come across as an idiot if you turned up with a harness and lanyard? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madorangepanda Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 They're only any good if the ladder is securely fixed to something, else you end up getting hit by both the ladder and the ground. A jury rigged system using climbing equipment is definitely not the way to be going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadingle Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Surely if you're on a ladder you should maintain 3 points of contact and only use it for short intervals (focusing or re-gelling lanterns) - making restraint / arrest systems unnecessary? If you're doing anything that requires both hands or use for extended periods it's time to use a different access solution - tower or picker etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 There's also a subtle psychological effect where, feeling safe and secure in your harness, you take more risks than you normally would. Even with a perfect harness in place, a fall from any kind of height is not a pleasant experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Now that WAH harnesses are readily available to the relevant standard for work use, the use of equipment to the sports standards is less than best practise. A ladder is a place for climbing, work should be done from a platform, though as ever simple one hand jobs usually get done from a ladder if the platform is unavailable. Before you contemplate WAH consider what happens if/when you fall into your harness and are suspended 3m above the ground and out of reach if walls or ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Some good replies to this already, but I'll add my 10 penn'orth. Ladder climbing for whatever reason is all about getting to where you need to be on the whole - ie getting as high as you need to be.However, whilst it has been said that ladders are for climbing, a platform is for working at height, that is a little simplistic, especially in our business. Platforms ARE an ideal for that but many many times in theatre you just won't get anything more than a ladder anywhere near the workspace, so you have no choice. That said, working atop a ladder must be about doing it safely, which is far more about HOW you carry out the tasks in hand rather than trying to tie yourself off . Lanyard secured to a ladder is a pretty big no-no in my book - it can be both a hazard and a restriction. If you clip on, say, but have to then climb another couple of rungs and don't unclip, then you could stop yourself short and cause an imbalance, in turn causing the ladder to move. Safe working practices WaH on ladders is something best learned by practice in the situations you'll find yourself in. Learning NOT to overstretch, NOT to attempt to carry heavy gear up with you (use rope & pulley for instance with ground assist), NOT to climb to the wrong height for the job in hand, etc etc. And good tool management is also essential. Take up what you NEED or may possibly need having assessed the job, not a belt or pockets full of kit which all adds to the safety risk for those below. And have the ladders footed PROPERLY! That Youtube vid earlier posted is a classic example of why fall arrest on a ladder is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyro_gearloose Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Not sure how much use footing a rigid step ladder like a Zarges actually is. Like I tell well meaning people who stand on the cross bar of our Zarges when they see me climbing up it to change a gel: if I fumble the gel frame and drop it, the first thing it will hit is the top of your head. That will hurt! Also, my weight times the leverage of the ladder, plus the weight of the ladder itself equals far more than you could ever hold up should everything go over sideways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Hmmm... If you're ever doing something up a ladder that is sufficient to cause that properly footed ladder to go, then you are definitely doing something wrong up there!Footing the ladder isn't meant to allow the guy up top to lean out further or use more spanner force on - say - a tough nut & bolt - it's there to stabilise the ladder in case of minor wobbles. You'd be surprised though how much that can prevent even larger movement from becoming a serious problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleah Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Not sure how much use footing a rigid step ladder like a Zarges actually is. Like I tell well meaning people who stand on the cross bar of our Zarges when they see me climbing up it to change a gel: if I fumble the gel frame and drop it, the first thing it will hit is the top of your head. That will hurt! Also, my weight times the leverage of the ladder, plus the weight of the ladder itself equals far more than you could ever hold up should everything go over sideways. Hmmm... If you're ever doing something up a ladder that is sufficient to cause that properly footed ladder to go, then you are definitely doing something wrong up there!Footing the ladder isn't meant to allow the guy up top to lean out further or use more spanner force on - say - a tough nut & bolt - it's there to stabilise the ladder in case of minor wobbles. You'd be surprised though how much that can prevent even larger movement from becoming a serious problem I understand exactly what gyro is saying. Assuming you are on professional Zarges with the extended crossbar....If you move/lean in such a way that could topple the Zarges un-footed, then apart from the fact you must be doing something VERY dangerous, if you did get to the point where they toppled un-footed, then if they had of been footed, it would make little difference and the footer would be going over with them.It takes a LOT to topple a decent set of professional Zarges, you're far more likely to fall off them than fall with them. And if you did fall off them (and consequently pull the ladders with you), no one man on the ground would be able to help, his best bet would be run like heck - then get help..... However, Ynot makes a good point about minor wobbles, which could cause the person up the ladder to drop tools or worse lose balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRW Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 There's a very comprehensive document published by Loughborough University/the HSE about the effectiveness of footing ladders... Link I've got no idea whereabouts in that it gives you the 'best result' (I read skimmed over most of it a few months back), but essentially, it said the best way is for the 'footer' to be stood with both feet on the bottom rung, holding on securely, and on the same side of the ladder as the person climbing it. Points to anyone who finds that page! If people are bored have the opportunity, I do recommended reading glancing through it if you have a chance! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Take a shortcut to the HSE conclusions on that Loughborough report bearing in mind that leaning ladders are way down the list as access to WaH and that footing a ladder is also way down the list of stabilising them. Footing is a "last resort". Someone up above mentioned the dangers of falling objects on the footers of ladders which might explain why all work from leaning ladders or anywhere at height shows people wearing hard hats. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 One other thing that having a regime where ladders must be footed is actually another way of discouraging people from WaH whilst alone. Because if someone's footing there should always be a second person on scene.A bit psychological in a way but every little helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GridGirl Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I would never clip myself onto a ladder. As madorangepanda said, if you fall off a ladder you're clipped on to, the only thing you will achieve is to pull the ladder over on top of you. I used to work in a theatre where a lot of the lighting rigging was done off ladders, purely because the set designs often meant we couldn't get the scaff tower in where it was needed (it was always used where possible). Each person climbing ladders had a ground support crew member assigned to them, lanterns were always roped up to the bars (not carried up the ladders) and while we didn't always foot ladders, if we did it was with hard hats on. And if you had a day where you were not feeling up to climbing up and down a ladder, that was never an issue, you'd be put on ground support instead. To my mind, that's a far safer practice than clipping onto a ladder or on to a part of the structure not designed for it - I wouldn't clip myself to a lighting bar either, unless I specifically knew it was rated for a suitable shock load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Is this an appropriate time to view the " " clip again? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 What, the one from post #2? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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