LED Pars

[Ynot]

just looked at th showtec ones, these are still listed as £100 for 64's.

I'm still trying to figure out the difference twixt the par 56 size and the par 64 sized LED cans...

Apart from being touted at twice the price, the 64's have, I believe, the same number and size of LED's... Is it just that they're spaced out a tadge more?

It does seem a little odd.

[chris ewington]

So we have �£50 and unreliable or a grand and perfect!

There must be something inbetween?

 

 

I have recently designed and introduced a new 'mid priced' led fixture (called satellite) with the power and punch expected (42 watts). The price fits neatly between �£ 50- �£ 1000 pounds and has the functionality you need.

 

 

Email us at http://www.I-pix.uk.com if you want details

[musht]

The 40 Par56's in my roof are still all working perfectly & even running through two sets of diffusion acrylic I still rarely run any channel at 100%.

 

I really don't think there is comparison with £1-1.5K units. They serve a different purpose and I'm sure most are well aware of them.

However, since they were mentioned, has anyone been able to A/B the SGM Palco3 against the DTS models? DTS are approx 2/3rd the price. I'm about to purchase one or the other. No speculation please, I've seen them at Plasa and studied the differences but I have not been able to sit them next to each other and see if the light output is similar enough to get more of the cheaper ones!

 

Sorry, but bit of speculation, DTS unit uses an array of single device RGB LEDs, the 3 LED dice are on the same carrier.

 

Advantage should be better colour blending. It also has a cost advantage for the manufacturer don`t think Lumileds or Cree make multi chip RGB LEDs, some of the far Eastern manufacturers like Optotech do. Would put a question mark on lumen maintenance of multichip LEDs.

[niclights]

Thanks, but as I said I knew details (Actually they offer two options, one combined RGB, one separate :huh: ). It is real life comparison that I need to hear about. We've been trying to arrange a demo but so far has been difficult to get the DTS units in.

[Ekij]

I would have concerns about thermal dissipation of the multi chip LEDs.

Three LEDs on the same chip will build up three times the heat but won't be as easy to dissipate this heat as three separate LEDs.

[musht]

Thanks, but as I said I knew details (Actually they offer two options, one combined RGB, one separate :huh: ). It is real life comparison that I need to hear about. We've been trying to arrange a demo but so far has been difficult to get the DTS units in.

 

What manufacturer are the single dice LEDs?

 

Far Eastern high power LEDs in my experience, several years, will not be as bright intially as Cree or Lumileds product and the lumen output will depreciate significantly faster, could be looking at as much as 20% down in first 1000 Hours.They are significantly cheaper rhan branded devices.

 

LEDs are advancing at a very fast rate currently , safe to assume anything you buy will be pretty much obsolete within 2 years, this may well affect your calculations as to Total Cost of Ownership.

 

Would also look at dimming curves and smoothness, some just aren`t.....

[Tomo]

Would also look at dimming curves and smoothness, some just aren`t.....

Most definately - the Showtec and Stairville units are extremely jerky.

[Ekij]

The Showtec and Stairville units are extremely jerky [when being dimmed].

How much would you pay for an upgraded PCB or chip that resolved this issue?

And what sort of market would you expect for such an upgrade option?

[robloxley]

What manufacturer are the single dice LEDs?

http://www.ledtronics.com/ make a variety

[niclights]

The DTS units are serious units aimed at the professional market, just like the SGM ones. Speculative talk about where the LED's come from etc is not relevant to my question and, no offence, but frankly I don't see the value of such posts. I had a good look at them at Plasa, I talked to them. AC are distributing, are keen for me to purchase and were also displaying as a new product. It is a realistic alternative to the Palco, of which I have plenty of experience. It's well made, the moving version has much more usable tilt range and has the same IP ratings etc. This is not something I would bracket in with the cheap Chinese unit discussion of which I also have plenty of experience. :)

 

The only thing I have not been able to do is compare them side by side for output. That is my only remaining concern. Thankyou! :P

[musht]

>>>The DTS units are serious units aimed at the professional market, just like the SGM ones. Speculative talk about where the LED's come from etc is not relevant to my question and, no offence, but frankly I don't see the value of such posts.<<<

 

I`m sorry that you can see no value in my posts , which are aimed at the general readership of the Blue Room and those in particular considering investing in LED units, whilst they were in reply to your post, their scope was intended to be wider.

 

Of course I take no offence , as have obviously failed to make my point in a clear manner, generally enjoy and have learned much from your posts Nic look forward to your review when you are able to compare a the DTS to the Palco ,thankyou for your comments.

 

Indeed my impression of the DTS units is that these are aimed at professional users similar to the market the SGM Palco is aimed at.

 

Speculative talk about where the LEDs come from is extremely relevant to any purchaser of fairly high end LED lighting units.

 

Ledtronics whilst offering a very wide range of LED products is not a primary manufacturer of LED dice.

 

The Die, plural Dice, in a Light emitting Diode is the small chip that actually emits light, these are grown on , typically sapphire wafers in reactors, then sliced into indivdual dice. There are many manufacturers that purchase these raw dice and encapsulate them into the device more commonly known as an LED. These finished LEDs may be further assembled into finished products that are marketed by such companies as Ledtronics.

 

The first developer of a practical high power LED, greater than 20mA, was Lumileds orginally a joint venture between Philips and Agilent the semi conductor manufacturer. Lumileds are now wholly owned by Philips.

 

The Luxeon range of LEDs has been available for some years now, they are well regarded , as Lumileds publish copious amounts of data on the performance and expected lumen maintenance.Manufacturing which believe is mainly based in Malaysia is very tightly controlled with good quality assurance.

 

Cree of the US, is possibly the worlds largest manufacturer of LED dice, their low power dice are used by many many makers. Cree make a series of high powered dice that currently outperform the Lumileds competition. Again Cree`s manufacturing and quality assurance are excellent and a purchaser may feel it is worth a premium to have the assurance of buying a major branded product with all that implies.

 

Cree also sells the bare high power die to other manufacturers to package most notably Seoul Semiconductor of North Korea who package the dice into their own LED package which is then available for manufacturers to incorporate into their finished LED lighting units.

 

Nichia of Japan is the original developer of both Blue and White LEDs and also make a range of higher power LEDs, their LEDs of all sizes command a considerable premium over LEDs from lesser manufacturers.

 

Toyoda Gosei of Japan is another well regarded primary manufacturer of predominantly smaller LEDs.

 

Would personally regard the above names , possibly along with Osram, as the first tier of primary LED manufacturers.

 

Success breeds imitation, Lumileds have launched a number of actions against companies selling `knockoff` Luxeon Star LEDs, these are fake LEDs made using non first tier primary makers dice mounted to Star boards with the name Lumileds etched on to them.

 

These high power ,non first tier primary manufactured LEDs are also available from a number of sources without them being faked up to look like Lumileds product.

They are very considerably cheaper than product from a first tier primary manufacturer.

They do not come with copious amounts of manufacturers test data, it is not available.

Construction quality and light output is generally inferior to a first tier primary manufacturers product.

My experience of these products is that infant mortality and lumen maintenance is poorer than first tier primary manufacturers product, presume that manufacturing control and quality assurance has been sacrificed to lower the unit cost.

 

It could well be that DTS and other manufacturers are sourcing there LEDs from non first tier primary manufacturers, but having them made to their specification and/or subjecting them to their own Quality Assurance procedures before using them in product. Still think it is a question worth asking of any vendor asking you to invest possibly several thousand pounds , some QA paperwork would be nice rather than just a glib `of course we do...`

 

Competition is good, Lumileds ruled the high power LED roost for some years as the only manufacturer, competition is increasing efficiency and lowering prices, new good quality products on the market are definately to be welcomed.

 

Regret that many professional purchasers of LED product were sold products that were poorly designed, poorly constructed and made with poor quality LEDs. They were oversold these products on promises of long life and energy savings.

 

My living is based on assisting people with LED solutions and the disappointment created by the overselling of LED product has had a negative effect on the market as a whole. Better educated customers can only benefit us all.

 

Would suggest that any method of buying LED product purely on initial brightness is very unlikely to offer the best value for your hard earned money.

 

>>>Edited to Clarify, probably failed ;-/ <<<

[musht]

Bit of a step in between 50 quid and grand plus, not same level of the I-pix Satellite. Showtec LED Studiobeam

 

http://www.highlite.nl/index.php/highlite/.../led_studiobeam

 

24W of no brand LED at 15 degrees, apart from some concern about brightness tailing off faster than big name, looks like may be OK value at street price. Other thing is fan cooled so keep them out the rain.

[Paul J Need]

Hey guys,

 

we are up for getting some new lighting kit in our warehouse. currently we have 24 par cans (12 on stage, 12 on cieling) and im looking at getting two profiles. I also came accross the LED par fixtures on usedlighting.co.uk and they looked like a great way to get some colormixing happening. I particularly had my eye on the par64 short nose variety for 94 GBP each + VAT.

 

So my question is - how bright are they? and I assume they take up 3 DMX channels each?

 

Cheers

 

 

The 2nd generation LED pars are a little brighter, if you'd like to see one before you buy let me know. As I think you should have a play with one so you can see light levels and see if they will be enough for you.

 

Paul

[Ynot]

[The 2nd generation LED pars are a little brighter, if you'd like to see one before you buy let me know. As I think you should have a play with one so you can see light levels and see if they will be enough for you.

Paul

Hi Paul.

What sort of cost are these 2nd gen LED Pars coming out at? Are they still in the £50 mark?

I'll be in the market for a handful very soon, and am looking at the Showtec par 56's from Stage LX, (ie before Xmas) but if you can offer an objective view on these new ones compared to the Showtecs, I'd be very interested.

I'd say PM me the details, but I suspect this would be of interest to many here....

[musht]

List pricing is on Paul`s site:

 

http://www.10outof10.co.uk/acatalog/copy_o...kalite_LED.html

 

Request for someone who has:

 

1 * 300W Par 56 (MFL?)

1 * 56/64 LED Par 5mm 50 quid type,

RGB Gels close to LED colours

1 * Digital camera

Optional: light meter, high power LED based Par or flood.

 

Please take some pictures side by side pointing at a surface and post them , the 30,000 viewers to this thread would appreciate it.