Jonah Starkey Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Hi, For an upcoming semi-professional show they want to have a character throw a lit match upstage. Everything is telling me that this is a bad (not to mention illegal) idea. I was wondering if anyone knows the ins and outs of the naked flame laws in theatre or if any suitable alternatives such as an LED match. Another idea we had was to use flashpaper but because of the shipping and that it has to be dried out seems like it's liable to not work correctly or pose an health and safety hazard. Any help would be appreciated so as we don't have to use glue, glitter and a bit of slight of hand. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 There is nothing illegal about flames, ask any juggler, you just have to get a competent responsible person to risk assess then implement the necessary controls. I have done umpteen performances and events involving large amounts/numbers of naked flames indoor, outdoor and even in tents so they can be done. Your problem now is that, having asked advice from an open internet forum, you would have difficulty proving you were that competent responsible person. My initial advice would be not to go there at all. There are plenty of people on BR who could do it safely but whether they should advise anyone how to on an internet forum open to misinterpretation is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I'm not going to comment on the use of the match, for the reasons Kerry mentions above, but a thought on an alternative method; Forget having an LED match - too small, too fiddly, too much like hard work. Instead fit a very bright orange LED in to the side of the matchbox, with battery and switch inside. As they strike the "match" press the button for the bright flash of orange adjacent to the strike. After that it's all about how the match is held. Held cupped in a hand (as we all do when there's a slight breeze) the orange glow of an LED held in the palm is all you need to signify the presence of a lit match that's being cupped. The likelihood of a real match surviving being thrown and staying lit is pretty slim anyway, so as it's thrown just turn the palm LED off. No heat, no naked flame, easy electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 A competent person should be able to determine the risks and hazards of your proposed actions and produce all the necessary actions and precautions to make it safe enough. Magicians use actions like this regularly, it's possible, once you've done it once its simple easy and repeatable. The art is understanding the hazard and it's risk and mitigating both repeatedly until it almost vanishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Starkey Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 Thanks for all the help people - much appreciated I'll see where I go from here :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigclive Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Is this to imply setting fire to something? Is the thrown match going to remain visible? Could a "throwie" be used with a warm white LED to imply a thrown flame? (A throwie is an LED taped across a 3V lithium button cell with a thin shim of plastic between one leg and the cell to act as a switch when pulled out.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 I've always been slightly uncomfortable with questions like these from students. nothing to do with the student asking the question, but with the competency of their teachers who surely should have sorted this out on first mention. I remember these kinds of questions always coming up and the staff would listen, then advise, guide or just laugh hysterically. I get the feeling that some of the teaching is quite wrong, or misguided - especially when students understandably get convinced that things are 'illegal'. The reality is that so many things just aren't illegal at all, and some perhaps even should be. We all have the risk assessment requirement, and over the years, I'm very comfy with them when they are decent and well thought through, and yet I get very angry with the bad ones. The senior Police Officer at Hillsborough is in the news again today, and is going to be re-tried. Why we don't teach this kind of stuff in education I don't know. Being able to really consider a potential risk should be part of the courses, but it just gets warped with the usual H&S mumbo jumbo into something comical in many cases. Every day, thousands of people throw lighted matches down. On my pier, almost each week there will be one small outbreak of fire due to it. In paperwork terms what would that be for the 'likely to happen' box? Probably an absolute 100% certainty that fire will break out. Knowing this you put control measures into place. If we assume the throw away match is in a school/college production, then any competent person in charge could simply make sure sand, water, extinguishers or other solutions are present with people responsible enough too be tasked to control this scene. Like Hillsborough, the person in charge needs the broad enough shoulders to carry out their job, and take the blame. I suspect I would have got a spare fire extinguisher and a bucket of sand and given one of the students the role of fire warden. I would have signed the risk assessment, and made sure I monitored it. Why do modern teachers leave it to students, or just say no because of H&S? in this case, we have the student trying to make decisions that really should be made by somebody on staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Where it all falls down Paul is the competent bit of competent responsible person. Teachers just do not have the training, skills and experience to write an RA for what is basically an industrial process. In my FE tutor training nobody even mentioned Risk Assessment and I know my academically trained drama teaching colleagues didn't have a clue from their degree courses. Technical stage graduates did but they are few and far between in schools. That said, they may not be competent but they are the responsible person and palming off that responsibility onto students is criminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 I can't even get teachers to accept that "Risk Assessment" is a verb, not a noun.They almost all want a piece of paper called an RA thinking that covers everything and them. No matter who wrote the RA, in what context, or type of pupil involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Well if they were trained properly - which they aren't any more - they wouldn't need to be told because they'd be risk assessing as part of the job continuously due to the indoctrination into the responsibilities that went with the job. It was drummed into us from day one that the first concern was to look after our charges and that meant looking out for them. Most experienced old school teachers could walk into any space and pretty well instantly identify where the risks were. We didn't write it down of course we just did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunray Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 We didn't write it down of course we just did it. Well that's progress of course... I've been providing PA at an anual open day for about 10 years and suddenly this year they have asked for a RA. I wrote it very late at night after a long hard day and submitted it. Next day I read through it and realised it was actually a pile of rubBiSh, however the organisers reckon it is well thoughtout and asked if they could use it themselves. I just call it common sense but that seems to be outlawed these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 As has been said, there is no law that specifically prohibits the throwing of a lit match on stage. However, so doing MAY be de-facto prohibited by the building owners or their insurers. Many prohibit ANY use of "real fire or flame" on stage. Even in the absence of any such prohibition, the idea makes me uneasy, though it is doable with suitable precautions. The obvious precautions include making certain that the surroundings are fire retardant and the provision of buckets of water and sand, fire extinguishers, and persons to use same. Two less obvious but still important considerations include, firstly a good standard of cleaning in the area to avoid any build up of potentially flammable dirt, dust, or refuse, and secondly a careful examination of the stage surface to ensure that it has no small holes, gaps, or crevices down which a lit match could fall and perhaps start a fire. Many "proper" stages consist of wooden boards with storage below, a lit match going down a crevice between the boards could have most serious results. Many temporary stages consist of moveable sections, perhaps with slight gaps between them, down which a dropped match could fall and perhaps ignite dust or litter. Finally remember that the spent match is PROBABLY safe, but should be broken in half and put in a metal tin as an extra precaution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 Sometimes it's the stage management's responsibility to see that the artistic necessities of the piece DO HAPPEN, and find away to make the process safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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