Get out payments and definitions

[Digger65]

As a provincial recieving venue we are getting more and more companies instructing us they don't require crew for get outs 

however the often still wish to fly equipment, softs, projectors etc.

often the agreement isn't relayed to visiting companies who seem to expect us to help load out 

just wondering if anyone is encountering the same and how you are handling it? 
to my mind we shouldn't be flying anythingpost show  as flying it in and de rigging it would constitute a get out? 
I don't want to start a discussion around venue recharges as get outs are about the only remaining benefit that keeps my guys from going off to earn more in lidle and if that happens it's to the detriment of the industry as a whole, visiting companies and venues alike 

thanks in adv

D 

 

[J Pearce]

I'd talk to BECTU for full guidance, but my line would likely be that any duties that aren't part of the show call as per other performances would constitute a getout - so at the very least they'd need 1 tech to fly (and weight). (I guess the company could play a game and make the duty tech fly everything in at the end of every performance, but I can't see that lasting long)

From a venue point of view, I'd also not want a visiting company operating on stage without a duty technician - and this should likely form part of your contract with visiting companies.

[Ynot]

Interesting.

My current sole paid work in theatre is limited to getins and getouts at a couple of full size receiving houses, despite there currently being opportunities to work shows as well. That limit is (until the end of June when I retire from the day job) because doing show work after a day's FT work isn't sensible on a regular basis, but also because by the time I've driven to the venue, parked in a P&D car park and paid emission charges I'd need to work close to 2.5 to 3 hours before I saw any actual overall income from the job each day. Few show calls are more than a 4 hour call unless there's a matinee as well.

So a full day's load-in or an overnight out (usually at 2x time) are the only options for me to justify turning up.

The most regular venue I work in Brum usually has a good in-house compliment, which is good. And eminently sensible, as a) there HAS to be a duty tech with house responsibilities and b) the local crew will know the local practices and where house gear needs to be returned and how. If I were a venue senior tech I certainly wouldn't be wanting a touring crew to just do what they wanted with my gear after a load-out!

[kerry davies]

I am well out of touch these days but how do these companies cover the venue for insurance risk if there is no official venue presence? They are perfectly entitled to use their own qualified and competent crew but their eyes might water at the rates I would charge for venue representatives to oversee their work.

Places like Earl's Court used to charge me for their electrician to sit and watch me plug in a Cee-form and it was never basic rate.

[Digger65]

Hi thanks for the observations, to clarify would always leave a duty tech on to oversee stage practices on the out 

just would be hesitant to allow them to rig any flown items if no get out was being offered as to my mind as soon as the duty tech does any work on the load out they should be paid a get out rate 

We don't have a 2x rate in house so staff would be expected to remain at single time hrs and min wage rate which is why get outs are important to protect in this instance 

D 

[gareth]

Standard practice is that the house crew for the get-out is the same as that called for the get-in. If a touring show calls 4 stage and 2 LX for the in, that's what they should be paying for for the out (and the people who worked the in should get first refusal on the out).

If you come across a company who refuse to pay for crew for a get-out, my inclination would be to make it clear that only your venue staff are permitted to operate any powered hoists, counterweight flying, etc. and ask if they still want to stick to their position 😉 . Of course, you'll need a duty house tech to be there for building cover - but if they're not getting a proper get-out rate (if the show is a 'qualifying' one) they should do no more than simply 'be in the building' - touch nothing, move nothing, white gloves resolutely on.

I guess touring companies arguing the toss more and more these days about paying a proper BECTU/TMA get-out is par for the course given the way the theatre business seems to be heading. "Fings ain't wot they used t'be"...

[GR1]

As Ynot has indicated the only way to make crewing a show during the week or working the fit up worthwhile is to be paid a get out fee otherwise the pay isn't enough to make the job viable. Any company that doesn't want to pay a get out should provide their own fit up and running crew to be supervised by the venue stage manager and should provide written documentation of the formal training their crew has undertaken to show competence to crew the show in your venue. The visiting company will also have to show full insurance for their crew. I would put that into the contract your venue signs with shows that visit so the shows can make an informed decision as to how they prefer to operate. There is no point in discussing it when the show is already in the venue.

[ImagineerTom]

Isn't the issue of crew allocation / costs / BECTU compliance etc already covered in the TMA standardised contract (and affiliated terms) that the show almost certainly signed when the original booking was made? Going forward discussions might need to be had about such matters but from a legal point of view this is probably already resolved for bookings made in the last few years.

[gareth]

Part of the issue is that fewer and fewer venues these days are agreeing contracts with visiting companies which include a properly-paid get-out. The touring production don't want to pay it, and the venue management don't care whether the crew get it or not (they just contra the cost on to the company if it's paid, which is a bit of extra work that they'd probably prefer to avoid).

The worst examples, of course, are the venues which contra the full get-out cost on to the visiting company, but don't pay that onwards in full to the crew.

[ImagineerTom]

I understand but there are many situations where the old agreements are in force and the best solution to this problem is pushing management to ensure all future contracts are to TMA standards and norms because get out terms for crew won’t be the only unintended side effect if we’ll evolved and researched norms are abandoned. 

[gareth]

2 hours ago, ImagineerTom said:

I understand but there are many situations where the old agreements are in force

Far fewer than I suspect you think. Quite a few theatre venues, especially in the small/mid scale end of touring, never had BECTU/TMA or equivalent agreements - and more still are now moving away from them and placing staff under house agreements which, if they're lucky are partly based on the old TMA agreements but without the bits that really cost the management money.

How many venues around the UK still have 'old-school' T&Cs for their staff which provide enhanced payments for sixth day working, Sunday working, the very lucrative "time extra plus a day off in lieu" for bank holidays, TV payments, proper get-outs, and all the other enhancements which used to be enjoyed by those working for the meagre basic salary of a technician? Far too many buy-out agreements these days.

[paulears]

Some theatres have never done a TMA rate getup ever, others are rigid and follow agreements signed in good faith. My view is that this isn't really anything to do with the people who do the work. It is a management function - the people who deal with contracts. So many shows our one nighter venue receive stipulate no crew are required at all. The powers that be accept this, and realise they're penny pinching crafty production companies - and in mine, we fund our staff - no contras. Hours worked all at one rate for the hourly paid folk and the freelancers at the agreed rate for the job. I'm told by these companies that despite asking for no crew, they still need them, and get them, just at no cost to them. Our summer venue always over crew from the riders - so if they ask for two get in crew, they actually get 6 - simply because we know how long our ins and out take due to the long pushes. Get out gives them usually 7 - which means outs are quicker. Sometimes though, not quick enough. Last year, last show, the out was still not quick enough and while we were all doing a push, somebody on their crew decided they would fly the LX bars in to remove their lights. Our cradle loading is from stage level only, so a heavy bar might need 3 hauls in and out while rigging to keep adding weights. We came back to see all the bars empty, grumbled about impatience and only then discovered they'd brought the bars in, removed the lights and then took the brakes off and the things rocketed upwards, and they probably slammed the rope lock brake lever sin quickly which bounced the bars and they managed to bounce the steel rope off the pulleys in the grid, jamming them solid. We didn't notice till we were in again, preparing for the winter closure. 

No get in/out crew required is so common now - because the TMA rates are unaffordable for many venues. TMA on a two week run is very different to TMA every show. I'm not against TMA rates, far from it - but sometimes you get a choice - the production company or the venue has to fund it - The venue's 30% or whatever can't absorb it, and the production company's percentage struggles too. The maths is easy to do - we can all look at ticket price, sold seats and count staff - stage, FOH, management. We can do it for the production company and see how the figures just don't work. 

TMA rates or no TMA rate, the books have to balance, and often it's very marginal. My own figures for the show tomorrow suggest we will lose money. I think many people's shows must be close to the edge, and TMA breaks the bank.

 

[gareth]

25 minutes ago, paulears said:

the TMA rates are unaffordable for many venues

That's the thing, though - it's not a cost to the venue, the get-out enhancements are charged back to the visiting company. It's a historical thing. That's why the small number of venues which contra the visiting company for a full TMA get-out and only pass a percentage of that on to the house crew really grind my gears.

On the whole, Paul, I'd imagine that your venue does a lot of one-nighters - which wouldn't, in the general scheme of things, 'qualify' for a TMA get-out. At the venue I spent many years working in, we had a set of questions which determined whether or not a get-out was payable (and therefore chargeable to the company) at full TMA rates (or half-rates if it was in the studio venue, because the capacity was less than 500 seats).

• Is it a professional production?
• Did it play here for more than one night?
• Did it arrive in something bigger than a 3.5t Transit?
• Would it take the visiting company more than an hour to get it out unaided by venue staff?
• Has it come from, or is it going to, another venue besides ours?

There were a couple of occasional caveats, but on the whole a majority 'yes' meant that the get-out attracted BECTU/TMA rates, which would be charged on to the company.

The get-out 'clock' started ticking from the moment that FOH called house clear, and stopped when the back door of the last wagon was closed. If the get-out exceeded three hours, an additional half-hour was added on in lieu of a break. 

When you're looking at a mid-scale play or smaller musical doing weekly touring in no.2 venues, you might be looking at a call of at least 4 stage, 2 LX and 1 sound for the get-in (or the first part of it, at least... it might drop to fewer crew later in the day) - and therefore also for the get-out. Bottom line is that a majority of these may well be casual staff - and it's really not fair to expect a casual to knacker their weekend by coming into work by 10pm on a Saturday to do two or three hours at barely more than minimum wage (well, OK, it would be paid as a 4-hour call because that's the minimum - but that's not the point!).

[paulears]

Dead right Gareth - no way we would be in that arena - but the recharge thing is a big problem now. So many venues recharging at ridiculous rates - and the not passing it on bit is a separate issue and perhaps even dishonest?

If the venue say we will recharge X and Y the production company may simply not take the show there. If they don't notice, or even read the terms and conditions that's then a big shock. One this year asked one question - what is the size of the get-in door. That was the only question, bar the width of the stage. Not asked any questions about anything else at all? At my venue they won't get hit for recharges because we don't do them, save the occasional hire in item. We hear crazy items being recharged now apart from the usual stuff. Follow spots are rarely part of one-nighters now because of excessive fees for using them. Ours are free - but often don't get used because they've not been built into the show. Phantom people - like "do you want to use the XYZ?" kerchunk - that's a two people charge. Do you want follow spots? Kerchunk again, that's another two people and how about internet? Getting the password gets a charge. Even electricity being charged for due to the cost of it. "Do you want some water in the dressing room?" That's another charge, drunk or not. Sometimes I hear they've had six people's charges on the settlement, but there were only two physical people there! Hire charges for rubber cable to put lights or sound at certain parts of the stage is another one, with sometimes a charge for an 'electrician' to turn it on and off. 

The venues need more than their cut, so fire it back at the incoming people. We see production companies turning up in three sprinters, each with two people, then 8 in the band and a couple of other bods - A one night show with impractical numbers of people. I've been putting together a tribute band and I'm not convinced I can make it pay. I always mentally add the people up, multiply it by their typical day rate and compare it with the ticket sales - I really don't know why they do it - so many shows just cannot pay. With some touring shows doing two houses (2800 people in our case, at £34 a ticket) they only have two people - the star and the tour manager, then we get a show selling maybe 700 at £25 with 4 top turns, 5 in the band, 1 doing wardrobe and a crew of 4. It makes no sense!

[GR1]

It does make no sense.

There has to be an adjustment because tech crews can't be expected to live under a railway bridge in a sleeping bag for love of the job which is what it will come to without get out payments or a wage they can live on. I was surprised to look at the advert for deputy head of sound at Brum Rep and the hourly pay was only a quid over the minimum wage. That was plus get outs but that would need to top it up to 30k to be able to live in Birmingham with anything other than a student lifestyle [probably minus the booze and parties ...]. The adjustment needs to be an acceptance that shows which can't make money don't happen except in very rare situations where someone is carrying a loss leader. I do fully accept Pauls comments about hiking up prices for 'extras' which should be part of the contract.

In many ways our situation is like that of NHS workers. It is an accepted fact that those who work in the industry do so because they like it so the pressure on those at the bottom of the pile to work for peanuts continues. Unlike the NHS workers our industry does not appear a necessity or have the support of a lot of the population.

In an internet and multi media world there are too many theatres and there will be a weeding out of the weak, sadly.