School theatre sound

[tonytech]

I know its been asked (and answered) before, but before I start begging the govenors for money.....

I'm a Physics technician. I used to manage the school hall/theatre. Hearing loss and jobchanges mean I stepped back.

The stage is 9m wide by 9m deep. 1m from curtains to edge. Parents are complaining that "little Louise" cant be heard.

We had a refurb a few years ago, A&H QU32 mixer, Dynacord amps and speakers. Sadly the budget only streached to 2 Sennheiser G4 head band radio mics.

Ideally I'd like a decent number of radiomics, but .. in a school setting with noone taking full responsibility????

I'd like to install some fixed hanging mics above the stage.. Is it worth the difference in cost between "Pulse" and "Audio Technica"?

I'd also like some PZM/boundary mics on the front of stage, but I'm worried they will get trodden on/kicked.

Lastly I'd like some riflemics (mostly for the "Look I am doing something, I you still cant hear it's not my fault")

I'd love to hire/buy some to try or get professional advice, but I cant do that untill I've put a grovelling letter in and dont want to be shown to change my mind ...

Advice welcomed.

 

 

[themadhippy]

Run away. If you are successful in getting the budget  every time something isnt 101% as every mommy and daddy expect it to be its gonna be your fault.

[richard_cooper]

4 hours ago, themadhippy said:

Run away. If you are successful in getting the budget  every time something isnt 101% as every mommy and daddy expect it to be its gonna be your fault.

Been there and have to agree, run away. If Little Louise can't be heard by the audience, what's the chance that a distant microphone will be able to "hear" her. 

[Robin D]

I have always hired in enough headset mic's for all the key players. Usually 12, but occasionally 16 plus a couple of hanging choir mic's. On a large cast, have extra headsets so on the packs have to be swapped between the talent as the show progresses. You will invariably have a few breakages!  The advantage of hire is it works out a lot cheaper than buying them in to sit around 50 weeks of the year only to not work when needed as the batteries have been left in and leaked! Boundaries work to a point, but I find kids foot steps across stage are often louder than their voices! 

Shotguns only work if you can fix the position of the talent on stage (Impossible with kids even if you mark up the floor), or have an operator to point it appropriately. 

I have found many of the above problems with adult amdram groups as well, so it's not just with kids. Indeed, I find instructing the kids reaps more benefits than many of the soft props in amateur production. The same is true of lighting where some seem to delight in standing somewhere else other than called for by the cue, and then complain they were not lit! Fine if you cave a couple of follow-spots, but not much help when you have carefully rigged and focussed on the pre-agreed position! only to find the actors sleeve beautifully illuminated! 

I am probably at odds with many here, but I love working with the kids, even when things do go a little wrong. (Packs muddled up, on mute, headset connector not put in place, director moves the chorus after you have hung the mics! The list of opportunities is endless even with a teacher backstage 'supervising'.) Watching some of the less confident kids come out of themselves is fantastic though.   

I can remember only once in probably 50+ school and stageschool productions having a parent take me to task and that was a child singing a solo when not lit! The parent said I should have had a follow-spot on them. They look puzzled when I asked them to show me where they were!  I then pointed out that I had carefully focused two spot's, one haloing the other on an otherwise dark stage, and put tape marking and the words 'kneel here' for the child, but they chose to kneel on a completely different platform for that performance because the young lady concerned thought her parents would see her better if she went SR instead of SL! Had she have spoken to me about it, I may have had time to refocus but mid show no chance? Just had to bring a bit of wash up so she was 'visible'! If parents want to blame me, that's just fine.... I've yet to find one with the skills to do better and usually make it clear that I am there as a volunteer, not as a member of staff or paid technician! 

Surely I can't be the only one?

 

[sandall]

16 (or even12) radiomics sounds a nightmare with small kids. My experience with hanging mics over-stage (as opposed to a static choir, which they are designed for) is that they are a total waste of rigging time. I would just rig a line of (very visible, for the "look" you mention) short shotguns along the front & try to persuade the teacher in charge to make sure that "little Louise" & all her mates deliver any lines that Mummy & Daddy might wish to hear from right downstage. Yes, you will get phasing problems between the mics (don't even think of stereo) but at least they should be audible. PZMs can work, but they are much better at picking up little feet than little voices.

[Robin D]

3 minutes ago, sandall said:

16 (or even12) radiomics sounds a nightmare with small kids.

I didn't say it was easy. 😄 Definitely the best for audibility though if you can manage the channels OK. Vital that you know the kids well enough to recognise them when they appear 'off script'. Such joy! 🤔

Getting the teachers to direct anything to help tech relies on them understanding enough that they appreciate the need for proximity of the source to the mic.. In my experience, despite many boasting a degree in the performing arts, many really have little idea about sound or indeed lighting). Trying to get a proper tech rehearsal is always appreciated nightmare. How many times have I heard them say to the little treasures you need to shout it? No you don't, you need to be in the right place and use your diaphragm. 

One head of performing arts went out on the stage just before first night audience came in and removed all the tape markings from the stage floor "because it looked untidy"! The kids handling the set coped remarkably well under the circumstances, but we ended up with stuff out of position so the lighting was useless! I could have killed! 

[sandall]

2 hours ago, Robin D said:

 Vital that you know the kids well enough to recognise them when they appear 'off script'. Such joy! 🤔

I remember one show where a father had hired our venue as a 21st present for his kids to put on Wizard of Oz. We'd given them a pep-talk about cues - come the run, we didn't know whether the right person would deliver a particular cue-line, but could be pretty sure that somebody would!! A bit different from one junior school show, where they got into a loop & couldn't get out again - fortunately my other half, on lighting, was using subs, not a cue-stack🙂.

[sunray]

5 hours ago, Robin D said:

I have always hired in enough headset mic's for all the key players. Usually 12, but occasionally 16 plus a couple of hanging choir mic's. On a large cast, have extra headsets so on the packs have to be swapped between the talent as the show progresses. You will invariably have a few breakages!  The advantage of hire is it works out a lot cheaper than buying them in to sit around 50 weeks of the year only to not work when needed as the batteries have been left in and leaked! Boundaries work to a point, but I find kids foot steps across stage are often louder than their voices! 

Shotguns only work if you can fix the position of the talent on stage (Impossible with kids even if you mark up the floor), or have an operator to point it appropriately. 

I have found many of the above problems with adult amdram groups as well, so it's not just with kids. Indeed, I find instructing the kids reaps more benefits than many of the soft props in amateur production. The same is true of lighting where some seem to delight in standing somewhere else other than called for by the cue, and then complain they were not lit! Fine if you cave a couple of follow-spots, but not much help when you have carefully rigged and focussed on the pre-agreed position! only to find the actors sleeve beautifully illuminated! 

I am probably at odds with many here, but I love working with the kids, even when things do go a little wrong. (Packs muddled up, on mute, headset connector not put in place, director moves the chorus after you have hung the mics! The list of opportunities is endless even with a teacher backstage 'supervising'.) Watching some of the less confident kids come out of themselves is fantastic though.   

I can remember only once in probably 50+ school and stageschool productions having a parent take me to task and that was a child singing a solo when not lit! The parent said I should have had a follow-spot on them. They look puzzled when I asked them to show me where they were!  I then pointed out that I had carefully focused two spot's, one haloing the other on an otherwise dark stage, and put tape marking and the words 'kneel here' for the child, but they chose to kneel on a completely different platform for that performance because the young lady concerned thought her parents would see her better if she went SR instead of SL! Had she have spoken to me about it, I may have had time to refocus but mid show no chance? Just had to bring a bit of wash up so she was 'visible'! If parents want to blame me, that's just fine.... I've yet to find one with the skills to do better and usually make it clear that I am there as a volunteer, not as a member of staff or paid technician! 

Surely I can't be the only one?

 

Are you sure I didn't write that?🤣

 

One of the AmDrams I helped with had a member who thinks he is a profesionally trained classical singer and the group managed to fit in at least one spot for him.

He insisted on performing from the floor (where people at the back couldn't see him) and would always choose a spot SL near the piano to place his music stand. I'd immediately mark the floor and the pianist would position his stand during rehearsals. I focused a couple of P23's to light him, second production I'd also hang a couple of fresnels for when he started to move about, even moving the stand to follow his movement. He always managed to move out of any lighting provided for him and afterwards complained about lack of illumination.

During the actual play he would invariably make his entrances from a different place than rehearsed, his wife was the person who always said there was no director or producer in the group but she was very much in charge, oh and she thinks her husband is a better singer than Pavarotti.

Edited June 6 by sunray

[Ynot]

School situ - HIRE every time. 

Buying kit that only gets used 2 or 3 times a year is a huge waste.

Talk to local am-dram groups to see if you can get experienced techs n to help, but don't spend good money on gear that's hardly utilised.

[sleah]

I'm IT/AV in an independant school (3-18yrs) plus I work with a small youth theatre group. We (the school) own all our own kit - I'm not getting in to the buy/hire debate because it works for us but not for others.

16 hours ago, sandall said:

16 (or even12) radiomics sounds a nightmare with small kids. 

Not necessarily. It can depend on how you define small kids... I use them with Year 4 (7 year olds) but won't for the younger ones - i.e. the EYFS nativity!😆

As said, headsets will get you the best results, but only if managed properly in all aspects.

I'm very anal about how we use our headsets, like REALLY anal! I imply that it's done my way or not at all. Fortunately the people I work with appreciate my tenacity 🙂

We don't use comms. I insist I have a script and I'll usually mark it myself. Each character gets a mic number so that's how I mark the script. Can be a bit mad when they get lost or start to adlib - but that's part of AMDRAM fun!

I've tried danglies, but they ain't going to pick up 'little Louise' unless it's really close anyway.... shotguns can be a good compromise which I use with the little 'uns. Again, best results from shotguns are down to management. Get the director/teachers/actors on-board and make it VERY clear they stand 'there!' or they won't be heard. End of.

When it comes to danglies/stand mics your individual space and sound setup will govern how effective they will be.

I've personally never had a situation where PZM could be used, so can't comment.

[sandall]

54 minutes ago, sleah said:

've personally never had a situation where PZM could be used, so can't comment.

Haven't bothered with requoting it all, but agree with the rest. When I was working with a lot of amateur musical groups there weren't a lot of "budget" discrete headsets around, so it was mostly lavs. How well they worked depended largely on the individual cast members. I've used PZMs when they came with the venue & guns weren't an option, but at "home" venues (except for dance shows) I found they weren't nearly as effective as guns.

[sunray]

I've done a few 'summer schools' where we let the little darlings play with kit, the whole set-up is geared towards putting on a performance of some sort at the end of the holiday/beginning of new school year.

After the initial 'charging around like loonies' it soon turns into cliques of learning lines, singing, scenenry, sound, lights etc and plan the event accordingly. The teachers involved (Or an older child) will soon learn to walk on and move a performer to the right position.

 

Boundry mics in school, particularly juniors, prrffft forget it, just how much foot tapping, chatter and whispering do you wish to pick up?

I installed a new light and sound systems in a senior school 10-15 years back partly leading up to the end of year shows (several) and the big stuff during the summer holiday, there was also an outside hire by a local drama/singing teacher several days a week in the holiday, between us we planned days/times etc to work around each other towards the show at the end of the holiday.

It was apparent reinforcement was required and the hirer had one Emerdale which she asked if I could rig, it worked quite well but she tried to get everyone huddled together under it. I rigged 3 more (would have been Shures or AT's at the time) which performed differently to hers and quickly realising it she directed the show to their best advantage, (basically did a full left right flip which I didn't know until derig). These were mostly senior school children so would learn their parts properly.

[sunray]

15 minutes ago, sandall said:

Haven't bothered with requoting it all, but agree with the rest. When I was working with a lot of amateur musical groups there weren't a lot of "budget" discrete headsets around, so it was mostly lavs. How well they worked depended largely on the individual cast members. I've used PZMs when they came with the venue & guns weren't an option, but at "home" venues (except for dance shows) I found they weren't nearly as effective as guns.

My beef with PZM's is they pick up everything and often more of what is not wanted. The only things I usually use them for in conferencing and show relay.

[alistermorton]

I'm not really part of the sound department, but for our end of year young players productions (members are 8-18 yrs) we use 3 boundary mics across the forestage, not sure of the make but they look similar to a mic AT make, sort of lozenge shaped. They pick up remarkably little of the foot fall etc and do a decent job of picking up the voices of the actors who are downstage adding just enough reinforcement. The director (who runs the group) makes a point of impressing on the players that if they don't project they won't be heard, and the audience has paid (yes, it's open to the public and in our main auditorium) to hear as well as see them. Most of them get it, even the young ones. A lot of it is down to direction and coaching, they spend a lot of time rehearsing in the studio, practising their techniques..

[sunray]

1 hour ago, alistermorton said:

I'm not really part of the sound department, but for our end of year young players productions (members are 8-18 yrs) we use 3 boundary mics across the forestage, not sure of the make but they look similar to a mic AT make, sort of lozenge shaped. They pick up remarkably little of the foot fall etc and do a decent job of picking up the voices of the actors who are downstage adding just enough reinforcement. The director (who runs the group) makes a point of impressing on the players that if they don't project they won't be heard, and the audience has paid (yes, it's open to the public and in our main auditorium) to hear as well as see them. Most of them get it, even the young ones. A lot of it is down to direction and coaching, they spend a lot of time rehearsing in the studio, practising their techniques..

Like all microphones; it's horses for courses. Alot depends on how lively the stage is and how well they can be isolated. Theres a hall I used to visit regularly for a number of different events where the wooden stage it actually the wooden floor of what was the building next door and literally a hole was made in the dividing wall (along with removing floors, yada yada yada) So the actual front 9" of the stage was the original brick wall and fully isolated from the very heavy oak (and substantially dead) stage, I'd happily place several Crown PCC160's across there to good effect. My general experience of school stages is either stage blocks shaking and rattling or so hollow/lively it sounds like a one piece percussion bandwhen walked over. One that 'springs' to mind right now youd see microphone stands wobble as anyone moved.

When the situation is right for boundary mics they be amazing but equally they can be your worst enemy.

I've done a lot more work with junior school, 7 (or even 5) to 11years than senior which does make a difference

 

I think I still have a brand new white PCC160 in stock If anyone is looking.

Edited June 7 by sunray