School theatre sound

[Junior8]

I worked in a 1500 student school for 21 years. We got on quite well with a simple PA, a couple of mobile players, the worst that Furse could do and common sense. I am quite well aware I am increasingly  out of touch since walking away in 1997 but that does not make me wrong in questioning this kind of approach.  

Edited June 15 by Junior8

[sunray]

5 hours ago, Junior8 said:

I worked in a 1500 student school for 21 years. We got on quite well with a simple PA, a couple of mobile players, the worst that Furse could do and common sense. I am quite well aware I am increasingly  out of touch since walking away in 1997 but that does not make me wrong in questioning this kind of approach.  

No it's certainly not wrong to have an opinion or ask questions.

In my junior school the limit of technology as I recall it was a record player (possibly more than one) and a tape recorder. No stage but a few stage blocks, no stage lighting.

Senior school I suspect I have mentioned here before there was a brand new building making it a single site school rather than split by a mile.

We had a lovely stage, the electrical contractors had provided loads of 5A sockets wired back to SR in conduit and a little trunking at high level and a masive coil of red & black singles and a 2.5mm² Pyro/30A to local isolator.
We already had a reasonable selection of elderly Strand lights, so with a bit of trunking work and a J8 some stage lighting was in place.

Sound wise we had several tape recorders due to an excellent language department, a couple of loudspeakers (8" in an open backed 3ft square enclosure) and the old school buildings general PA amp (pair of 6V6 in pushpull) complete with FM radio RX and a crystal mic.

When I started getting involved with the plays I took dad's 4 loudspeakers and 30W valve amp in, shortly after the school purchaced a Leak Hifi amp, 4 speakers and a couple of cheap dynamic mics.

Yeah we thought we had it good.

 

However things do move on, I can't imagine anyone installing a 30W amplifier with just one "Mic" and one 'Gram' input. I've done a fair amount of jobs in schools, installing then babysitting a few uses, it never ceases to amaze me just how much tech kit is in schools now and how often it gets used, this applies to junior and seniors schools.

In my youngest grandsons school every assembly a class would put on some presentation, sound, video/pc, lights, the works.

I did think one school ordering 24 Radiomics in 2012 was a bit OTT, until I realised they have 3 performance/rehearsal spaces across their campus.

[paulears]

We’ve had the same topic posted as new, since 2003. Nothing has changed, despite technology going crazy.

The other thing that never gets enough emphasis, is the operators. The thought goes into the kit and rarely the people. I cringed through one memorable school show where they had spent a fortune on hiring in lights and sound. I was in the band. After the first rehearsal the hire company were slagged off for giving them rubbish equipment. The girl mixing the sound wasn’t good enough to act, sing or dance, so got given sound. She was sitting behind the mixer, too scared to touch anything. Faders in a row where the hire company had tested everything and left. 

If you have mics, they get given to the people who dont need them. That is quite normal. Stage edge, or hanging mics pick up the loudest sources, exactly as the audiences ears do. The kid with the pale pink voice doesn’t get made better by a mic, they get more exposed and if they hear their voice, they get quieter till they can’t hear it any more. What is needed is a teacher like the old style shouting dance school principals. Those that scanned the group and could yell EMILY, SING!!! 
 

dont forget too that personal mics means touching the kids. Twenty years ago, I felt comfy doing this, now, I hate it. I have some dance shows coming up and I am really struggling to find girls for the crew. 
 

the advice to not get involved seems sadly, to be very good advice. Poison challice for so many reasons now.

[sunray]

2 hours ago, paulears said:

We’ve had the same topic posted as new, since 2003. Nothing has changed, despite technology going crazy.

The other thing that never gets enough emphasis, is the operators. The thought goes into the kit and rarely the people. I cringed through one memorable school show where they had spent a fortune on hiring in lights and sound. I was in the band. After the first rehearsal the hire company were slagged off for giving them rubbish equipment. The girl mixing the sound wasn’t good enough to act, sing or dance, so got given sound. She was sitting behind the mixer, too scared to touch anything. Faders in a row where the hire company had tested everything and left. 

If you have mics, they get given to the people who dont need them. That is quite normal. Stage edge, or hanging mics pick up the loudest sources, exactly as the audiences ears do. The kid with the pale pink voice doesn’t get made better by a mic, they get more exposed and if they hear their voice, they get quieter till they can’t hear it any more. What is needed is a teacher like the old style shouting dance school principals. Those that scanned the group and could yell EMILY, SING!!!

Sadly you have hjighlighted the problem that makes me cringe everytime I see the biggest recommendation on here: Schools hirering in kit. The problem is strange kit comes in and no-one knows what to do with it, at least if it's always there , someone may use it and gain some knowledge.

2 hours ago, paulears said:

dont forget too that personal mics means touching the kids. Twenty years ago, I felt comfy doing this, now, I hate it. I have some dance shows coming up and I am really struggling to find girls for the crew.

About 8 years ago I assisted with the junior school nativity play and with a female teacher fitted headset mics, we found the easiest way to stop the children figetting was to sit them on my lap...  Oh dear.

Edited July 1 by sunray

[kerry davies]

Paul brings back happy memories of doing events with a junior school at East Finchley when I stood behind the gentle female teacher/conductor, leaping around making "louder" gestures and leading them astray into enjoying themselves.

"Oh you do seem very good at this PA lark" the teachers all remarked at summer festies and winter market gigs for years and not a single kid ever told on me. It was our secret though one of the parents was a BBC newsreader who pretty much guessed that I just pointed some random condenser mics at them.

[Stuart91]

13 hours ago, paulears said:

dont forget too that personal mics means touching the kids. Twenty years ago, I felt comfy doing this, now, I hate it.

I usually make it the teacher's problem. Most understand why I don't want to go delving under kid's clothes.

It's at the expense of the occasional "interesting" mic placement, but the more adept staff usually cotton on quickly enough. 

11 hours ago, sunray said:

About 8 years ago I assisted with the junior school nativity play and with a female teacher fitted headset mics, we found the easiest way to stop the children figetting was to sit them on my lap...  Oh dear.

Did you at least have a red suit and a false white beard?

[sunray]

2 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

I usually make it the teacher's problem. Most understand why I don't want to go delving under kid's clothes.

... but the more adept staff usually cotton on quickly enough.

Oh yes totally, however the first to be fitted was my grandson so it wasn't a wierd situation for us and the rest simply followed.

 

2 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

Did you at least have a red suit and a false white beard?

Nah, just red and green striped tights and a pointed hat.😁

Edited July 1 by sunray

[J Pearce]

18 hours ago, Stuart91 said:

I usually make it the teacher's problem.

In pro-theatre  I would usually expect the chaperone to at least fit/assist with fitting beltpacks and usually an initial fitting of the head mic - though the sound team would check and tweak this if needed. We would never work with any child without a chaperone present.

Having also worked in education land, I'd usually expect high school age kids to fit their own beltpacks (ask a friend to help etc.) and we'd assist with the head mic if needed - it takes a little bit of training in setup, but saves time every performance day. I've never done head mics on under 12s in an education setting.

[Robin D]

I am a licensed chaperone but would always want another unrelated adult present, the same as when the children are changing. On one notable occasion, having been through the process with a teacher, three primary age girls (although it was not a school production) came to the desk for sound check about a minute before they were due on stage (the desk for several reasons was SR not in the auditorium so not ideal). One of the threes mother was acting as chaperone. None of the mics works. With the mums approval and watching I spun them round to get to the packs that were clipped on the outside of their knicker elastic. I assumed they were on mute but no, none of the connectors had been pushed home to the click as was obvious when the mum removed the pack and the cable fell out!. Three quick pushes home, the mum replaced them, dresses down, three PFL checks and on they went.  Phew. 

The sad thing is that we all have to worry about it. I am not aware that there have ever been any abuse by people fitting microphones, or indeed back-stage, and indeed, I doubt there would be the time available, but I guess if some-one was that way inclined, they might just decide to come into the industry to gain access the children.  

 

[paulears]

Im not too well at the moment, and instead of being on stage for a forthcoming dance event, I shall be sitting glued to a chair in the sound box. Im the only person with a an enhanced DBS check, something oddly that has never, ever been asked for! Ive been really struggling to find females on stage. I had a girl from a school, who had been ‘sent’. She declared on first meeting that she didn't do kids, ropes, lifting and headphones. I pointed out this rather meant she didn't do theatre at all? She thought for a moment, nodded and never came back.

[Robin D]

Sorry Paul. The laughter is for the last point. Sorry you are not too well. 

Wondering why you specifically need females? Surely any dance group will bring their own licensed chaperones where any gender issues are already sorted? The gender of those manning the stage should be irrelevant.  

[sunray]

12 minutes ago, Robin D said:

Sorry Paul. The laughter is for the last point. Sorry you are not too well. 

Wondering why you specifically need females? Surely any dance group will bring their own licensed chaperones where any gender issues are already sorted? The gender of those manning the stage should be irrelevant.  

The issue isn't the chaperone aspect, as you say they should be part of the package. The issue is male sound guys fitting mics etc on young females, for some reason it raises eyebrows.

[Robin D]

I have always trained one of the chaperones or teachers to do it. Just say to the group that they need to provide someone. The sound guy could stand by to assist if needed under observation by the chaperone but usually would be on the desk to PFL after fitting. 

If I am doing sound in a school for arguments sake, I always insist on a female teacher, TA etc to assist with microphone fitting. I try to have enough mics so that we only change them in the interval. Inevitably I have to get involved with at least one child, but again make absolutely sure they are accompanied.    

[J Pearce]

The current case of Lucy Letby sadly rather demonstrates that females are just as able to abuse as males. The key thing is to ensure that there are proper licensed chaperones, and that you never get anywhere near a kid without a chaperone present. That means you've got another adult who has witnessed exactly what you did should any complaints arise. This is more important than the show continuing or all the mics working - do not break this rule.

As above, I'd normally expect the chaperones to do the bulk of the mic fitting, and the sound staff to just be tweaking capsule positions, wiping makeup off the capsule, air-canning out whatever sweet-of-the-day is currently stuck in the capsule etc.

[paulears]

Over a hundred kids, chaperones and chaos. A few boys, but the majority female. Quick changes everywhere because there will be thirty kids on stage, 30 in each wing, and probably more upstage waiting. Fellas on the crew struggle with just being around them, and worse, we have people left and right to stop them getting flattened as cloths come in and out. So sometimes kids have to be physically moved out of the way, when they take shortcuts in blackouts. Mic fittings can be managed, that doesnt bother us too much, but you need somebody who can push through hordes, crash into dressing rooms, and sometimes grab somebody by both shoulders and pull them out of harms way. Girls work better than fellas at this kind of thing. Otherwise you get a crew member come up and say, paul, I need to get into the gel room and there are girls changing in it (having found an empty, private space with a door).

chaperones are normally non technical, being a mum. Id not trust any of them to do mic fittings. I have always been the type who would say to the chaperone what I need to do, and how I intend doing it and then doing it myself under scrutiny. Always asking the child if it’s ok for me to do x and y, but my younger guys no longer want to do this. Worse we now get more issues, with adults. I have had both sexes complain about a sound 2 touching them because they are trans. In all my years doing this kind of thing, I have only started to have problems since we started being more open? I have fitted radio mics on females for ever with zero issues if its done appropriately, but now its just too much of a risk.

I also have little faith in the standard of amateur chaperones, either being useless, or totally over the top, but with a poor understanding of what the role entails. In these kind of shows, were not talking about sound really, we are talking about safety. The stupid stuff like a kid being too close to a cloth going out and the conduit lifting them off the ground, or hitting them on a head, or on one notable night, a girl standing in the wings getting her skirt over the top of the counterweight brake lever, and as she made her entrance, it flipped the brake off, and the slightly out of balance bar made a very slow entrance of its own. None of the stage crew could get through the throng to stop it.

thats the kind of issues we have.  10 am arrival, 6pm show. My role is always, as technical manager, toilets, toilet paper, spillages, mopping up wee on stage. Just going into their toilet is tricky for a bloke. 
 

for me, dance shows like this NEED female crew, and that’s covered by the equality and discrimination law.